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USA Wrote spain a anti-piracy bill, then Blackmailed them to pass it.

This is a discussion on USA Wrote spain a anti-piracy bill, then Blackmailed them to pass it. within the Entertainment forum, part of the General Chit-Chat; US Threatened To Blacklist Spain For Not Implementing Site Blocking Law | TorrentFreak United States government interference in Spain’s intellectual ...

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    USA Wrote spain a anti-piracy bill, then Blackmailed them to pass it.

    US Threatened To Blacklist Spain For Not Implementing Site Blocking Law | TorrentFreak


    United States government interference in Spain’s intellectual property laws had long been suspected, but it was revelations from Wikileaks that finally confirmed the depth of its involvement.

    More than 100 leaked cables showed that the US had helped draft new Spanish copyright legislation and had heavily influenced the decisions of both the government and opposition.

    Now, another diplomatic leak has revealed how the US voiced its anger towards outgoing President Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero last month upon realizing that his government was unlikely to pass the US-drafted Sinde (site blocking) Law before leaving office.

    In a letter dated December 12th and sent by US Ambassador Alan D. Solomont to the Spanish Prime Minister’s office, the US expressed “deep concern” over the failure to implement the SOPA-style censorship law.

    “The government has unfortunately failed to finish the job for political reasons, to the detriment of the reputation and economy of Spain,” read the letter obtained by El Pais.

    Racing against the clock in the final days of the government, Solomont had one last push.

    “I encourage the Government of Spain to implement the Sinde Law immediately to safeguard the reputation of Spain as an innovative country that does what it says it will, and as a country that breeds confidence,” he wrote.

    But along with the pleas came the stick.

    In the letter, which was also sent to Minister of Culture Ángeles González-Sinde after whom the law is named, Solomont noted that Spain is already on the Special 301, the annual report prepared by the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) detailing ‘trade barriers’ based on intellectual property issues.

    Solomont’s threat was that should Spain not pass the Sinde Law (described by some as the Spanish SOPA) then the country would be degraded further and placed on the Priority Watch List. This serious step would mean that Spain was in breach of trade agreements and could be subjected to a range of “retaliatory actions”.




    god bless the us government.



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    Way to go US, once again not minding your own business.

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    I have the opposite take, actually. I don't have a problem with the U.S. putting legislative pressure on Spain -- or for that matter, most of the rest of Europe. Many of these nations don't have functioning economies at this point without U.S. bailouts -- between direct lending from our Federal Reserve (IMO, that action goes well beyond their charter, not that many people in our government care about what a particular group or agency is supposed to be doing) and indirect lending through an institution such as the World Bank (which is also largely funded by the U.S. taxpayer, only our politicians have even less control over their actions even if its our money), the European economies are being propped up by money that will ultimately come from the United States taxpayer.

    I follow the Second Golden Rule here: He who has the gold, makes the rules. If we can't use our money as leverage to make all these European nations follow responsible spending patterns, the least we can do is force them to pass some laws that are in our interests even if it isn't in theirs. Personally, I'd prefer that Spain (among others) cuts their welfare state down to some sustainable size that doesn't require constant infusion of American dollars to maintain.... but I'll settle for something like this in the short-term.

    If the United States entirely "minded its own business" and didn't interfere at all, there'd be massive riots and perhaps civil war in Spain (and Greece and Italy and Ireland and Portugal and many others) when the people realized their politicians sold them a bill of goods they have no possible way to pay for. Frankly, that's fine by me.... but this is the situation we've gotten ourselves into at this stage of the game.
    (this space intentionally left blank)

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    People always question why I am so for Ron Paul, he has 0 conflict on this issue. US should be a non-intervening country.

    He has the same viewpoint on War as he does Relief: America = non-intervening.

    What confuses me is our white house clearly takes a stance opposing SOPA-esque censorship, so why would we be putting pressure on them to do this?

    ...


    Oh right, the DoD hack.

    Once again, Obama is a man without principles.

    I don't have a problem with this in idea, just in execution. Don't hide it, just come out and say Spain needs to come up with something to prevent the internet from being a safe haven for criminals and work with Spain only in the capacity they want in a completely open fashion. Going behind the scenes gives the appearance of impropriety, whether it is there or not doesn't matter, this looks bad on all fronts.

    Quote Originally Posted by njdevil View Post
    I have the opposite take, actually. I don't have a problem with the U.S.[...]
    Yeah, it is something nobody likes talking about... Much like all the pro-China philosophy people don't like talking about the fact that China doesn't actually spend money on anything. They have more poor per capita than we do in the US.

    For as much as people like to point the finger and say "Team America: World Police," they still hold their hand out the moment shit hits the fan. Such is life and the double standard of the world political stage, every country is more than willing to take a hand-out, but doesn't want to return the reach-around.

    I think most of the problem though is all the cloak-and-dagger bullshit, not the fact that the US is involved.

    The reality of a post-UN political climate is that the idea of self-contained countries is an illusion. The thing is there is a difference between self-containment and self-actualization.

    Don't sneak around behind the scenes, just be honest and let people handle it. A country needs to be able to actualize its own destiny, nothing has value unless earned and if the US is forcing it down people's throats it will never truly be valuable.

    US doesn't need to be a parent, it just needs to be a good neighbor.
    Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.


    Gauss's Rating Rationale:
    0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
    2-4: A just plain bad game.
    5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
    7: An average game, should be played at some point
    8: A good game, should buy at some point
    9: A great game, day-one purchase
    10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

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    Powerful countries carry influence, fact of the matter. As long as we are one of the most powerful, we will continue to pressure other countries into things we feel are best for us. Don't know why you are so appalled by it, I promise you we aren't the only one doing such things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthnytdwg View Post
    Powerful countries carry influence, fact of the matter. As long as we are one of the most powerful, we will continue to pressure other countries into things we feel are best for us. Don't know why you are so appalled by it, I promise you we aren't the only one doing such things.
    A huge part of responsibility and ethics is using your power appropriately. Pressuring other countries to do whats best for us doesn't necessarily create the best socio-political environment and, long term, isn't necessarily in our best interest.

    If you go in your neighbors house and re-arrange all their furniture for them, does it really matter they were going to do it anyway? You've inherently changed the dynamic of your relationship, and not necessarily in a good way even if you think you may have been doing a favor. They may gradually become more dependent on you, it may stir resentment, it may cause them to do things to subvert you, etc. None of these things are necessarily good in the long-term.

    You may laugh, but I view the real Golden Rule as a great principle to adopt. Would we want Spain exerting pressure on us to pass a law our lawmakers didn't want to pass if the tables were turned? No, so why are we doing it to them?

    I understand you are saying thats how things are done, I'm merely saying they don't have to be done that way. We can hold our lawmakers responsible for their actions too, and we can ask them to act more intelligently and not take the easy way out because groupthink results in simple-minded answers.
    Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.


    Gauss's Rating Rationale:
    0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
    2-4: A just plain bad game.
    5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
    7: An average game, should be played at some point
    8: A good game, should buy at some point
    9: A great game, day-one purchase
    10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagflar View Post
    Way to go US, once again not minding your own business.
    Please don't lump in all of us citizens with our dumb shit government. We're getting our freedoms robbed daily in the States too. Obama just passed the National "Defense" Authorization Act claiming:

    - U.S. Soil is a battleground for the "War on Terror" (or as I like to call it the War on Freedom or War on Logic)
    -The War on Freedom is perpetual and never ending
    -The military can imprison U.S. citizens indefinitely without Due Process (our day in court) which is in our Constitution
    -We can be detained indefinitely without proof for up to 10 years (and hell why would they need to follow that?)

    It's really, really bad over here. If you're thinking of moving here, don't do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BennysGoHome View Post
    Please don't lump in all of us citizens with our dumb shit government. We're getting our freedoms robbed daily in the States too. Obama just passed the National "Defense" Authorization Act claiming:

    - U.S. Soil is a battleground for the "War on Terror" (or as I like to call it the War on Freedom or War on Logic)
    -The War on Freedom is perpetual and never ending
    -The military can imprison U.S. citizens indefinitely without Due Process (our day in court) which is in our Constitution
    -We can be detained indefinitely without proof for up to 10 years (and hell why would they need to follow that?)

    It's really, really bad over here. If you're thinking of moving here, don't do it.

    as long as america pretends to be the world police it doesn't matter where your at.



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    Quote Originally Posted by BennysGoHome View Post
    Please don't lump in all of us citizens with our dumb shit government. We're getting our freedoms robbed daily in the States too. Obama just passed the National "Defense" Authorization Act claiming:

    - U.S. Soil is a battleground for the "War on Terror" (or as I like to call it the War on Freedom or War on Logic)
    -The War on Freedom is perpetual and never ending
    -The military can imprison U.S. citizens indefinitely without Due Process (our day in court) which is in our Constitution
    -We can be detained indefinitely without proof for up to 10 years (and hell why would they need to follow that?)

    It's really, really bad over here. If you're thinking of moving here, don't do it.
    I'm not missinformed and I never blamed it on the residents. Who represents a country and it's foreign policies? The government, not the people, so those are the ones I'm blaming, not you. I do know all the crap Obama and the senate is doing, and I do know how shit is finally hitting the fan there, so of course I'm not planning to go back there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss View Post
    US doesn't need to be a parent, it just needs to be a good neighbor.
    It can't. It'll try to rob it's neighbor from it's riches, soil and what-not, and will probably try to invade it, all thanks to the bully-like "Carry a big stick" mentallity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by njdevil View Post
    I have the opposite take, actually. I don't have a problem with the U.S. putting legislative pressure on Spain -- or for that matter, most of the rest of Europe. Many of these nations don't have functioning economies at this point without U.S. bailouts -- between direct lending from our Federal Reserve (IMO, that action goes well beyond their charter, not that many people in our government care about what a particular group or agency is supposed to be doing) and indirect lending through an institution such as the World Bank (which is also largely funded by the U.S. taxpayer, only our politicians have even less control over their actions even if its our money), the European economies are being propped up by money that will ultimately come from the United States taxpayer.

    I follow the Second Golden Rule here: He who has the gold, makes the rules. If we can't use our money as leverage to make all these European nations follow responsible spending patterns, the least we can do is force them to pass some laws that are in our interests even if it isn't in theirs. Personally, I'd prefer that Spain (among others) cuts their welfare state down to some sustainable size that doesn't require constant infusion of American dollars to maintain.... but I'll settle for something like this in the short-term.

    If the United States entirely "minded its own business" and didn't interfere at all, there'd be massive riots and perhaps civil war in Spain (and Greece and Italy and Ireland and Portugal and many others) when the people realized their politicians sold them a bill of goods they have no possible way to pay for. Frankly, that's fine by me.... but this is the situation we've gotten ourselves into at this stage of the game.
    Actually the U.S is now China´s little bitch. So............yeah.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by YumeOMiru View Post
    Actually the U.S is now China´s little bitch. So............yeah.......
    And that's a big problem -- the United States continues to borrow money from China for all sorts of irresponsible things, whether it is sending piles of cash to other countries that don't like us or whether it is political payoffs from the politicians in power to those who put them there. China has also learned the lesson very well, because they have a ton of clout on the world stage they wouldn't otherwise have (even if part of it comes from depressing their own currency to make it easier to flood foreign markets with their cheap products).

    He who pays the piper gets to call the tune.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YumeOMiru View Post
    Actually the U.S is now China´s little bitch. So............yeah.......
    Eh, not entirely, as much as the Asian media wants you to feel proud for your continent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagflar View Post
    It can't. It'll try to rob it's neighbor from it's riches, soil and what-not, and will probably try to invade it, all thanks to the bully-like "Carry a big stick" mentallity.
    Except the part where it can, you are right.

    The statement that the US can't just back off and be a good neighbor is just being hateful and ignorant.

    Plenty of people within the country know this, its just holding our lawmakers accountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by YumeOMiru View Post
    Actually the U.S is now China´s little bitch. So............yeah.......
    Oh, I didn't realize China had fixed its division of wealth problem and had become self-dependent.

    Wait... That didn't happen.

    Their wealth is still reliant on every country but their own.

    China builds stuff, but China doesn't buy stuff. They need the US/Canada/Europe/etc as much as those countries need them.
    Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.


    Gauss's Rating Rationale:
    0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
    2-4: A just plain bad game.
    5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
    7: An average game, should be played at some point
    8: A good game, should buy at some point
    9: A great game, day-one purchase
    10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

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    Our country owes China so much money it's ridiculous.

    Oh, and this just in! Our national debt now officially has surpassed our GDP. The country is now going to be perpetually in the red until things change.

    And yes Nagflar I know you're discussing the government, not the citizens. It's just that when us U.S. citizens go all over the world people hate us due to our government. I just want to show people that may be on this forum not from the States that not all U.S. citizens are potato chip munching, Kim Kardashian watching half-wits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BennysGoHome View Post
    Oh, and this just in! Our national debt now officially has surpassed our GDP. The country is now going to be perpetually in the red until things change.
    Because my work hates employee morale (or because if it was Science or ESPN, nobody would work) they run CNN in all the common rooms.

    You are aware that just an hour and a half ago CNN ran a report saying the exact opposite right? That for the first time since Obama got in office our GDP exceeds our National Debt by roughly 700 Billion dollars.

    Can the US Gov't spend that overnight? Yup. But still, I think you got the story backwards.

    I wouldn't worry about either number too much, they are both made-up. You gotta worry about gov't spending because it increases inflation, and thereby decreases your ability to be financially stable.

    When it comes to US politics this year, just pray shit like NDAA and SOPA become major talking points. It'll be the best way to get some of these fucking morons we have in office out and replace them with more rational people. I don't give a fuck whether we get R or D people, I just don't want extremists.

    Quote Originally Posted by BennysGoHome View Post
    And yes Nagflar I know you're discussing the government, not the citizens. It's just that when us U.S. citizens go all over the world people hate us due to our government. I just want to show people that may be on this forum not from the States that not all U.S. citizens are potato chip munching, Kim Kardashian watching half-wits.
    I've been lucky enough to be able to travel all over this wonderful blue marble orbiting this yellow sun.

    Some people are unable to separate the citizen from the government policy. I've been lectured in Europe about Bush policies by people who don't give a fuck when I interrupt them to say, repeatedly, I DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE GUY! I KNOW THIS GARBAGE... I LIVE THERE!

    Trust me when I say this, those people exist over there just like they do over here. Most people are good, honest, rational people. Problem is the 2%ers who are dumb and just passionately hate... There is no helping them. They are like a brick wall when you toss logic at them. Its just gonna bounce right back and they will do anything to make you feel guilty or to screw you over.
    Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.


    Gauss's Rating Rationale:
    0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
    2-4: A just plain bad game.
    5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
    7: An average game, should be played at some point
    8: A good game, should buy at some point
    9: A great game, day-one purchase
    10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

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    Gauss, I'm a Libertarian (See: Ron Paul 2012). I believe in getting out of other countries and sound financials so I hope that's not what you mean by "extremists" (although you don't trust TV news so probably not.) It's always good to have conversations with people that know whats up. Republican or Democrat are just terms, they're really both the same policy-wise. Feel free to hit me up whenever if you wanna talk about this stuff. I love having civil-minded political discussions. I will admit I may have gotten the figures backwards and stuff like the SOPA and the NDAA keeps me up at night. The elimination of Habeus Corpus for U.S. citizens is a very frightening precedent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BennysGoHome View Post
    The elimination of Habeus Corpus for U.S. citizens is a very frightening precedent.
    It isn't taught in schools, because it isn't politically correct to do so.... but the United States suspended Habeus Corpus back during the Civil War. One among many, many atrocities committed by the Abraham Lincoln presidency against the American people while prosecuting the Civil War, and part of the laundry list of grievances held by southern state governments about Washington's intrustion into their affairs and overruling of their rights.

    Then again, most of the dreck taught in schools is politically-motivated garbage pandering to various interest groups, as opposed to what actually happened and why. I'm not really surprised that this is no different.

    ....

    It wasn't particularly good for the average citizen when Habeus Corpus was suspended last time. If it gets suspended this time, it undoubtedly won't be any better this time around.
    (this space intentionally left blank)

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    Quote Originally Posted by njdevil View Post
    It isn't taught in schools, because it isn't politically correct to do so.... but the United States suspended Habeus Corpus back during the Civil War. One among many, many atrocities committed by the Abraham Lincoln presidency against the American people while prosecuting the Civil War, and part of the laundry list of grievances held by southern state governments about Washington's intrustion into their affairs and overruling of their rights.

    Then again, most of the dreck taught in schools is politically-motivated garbage pandering to various interest groups, as opposed to what actually happened and why. I'm not really surprised that this is no different.

    ....

    It wasn't particularly good for the average citizen when Habeus Corpus was suspended last time. If it gets suspended this time, it undoubtedly won't be any better this time around.
    I agree with everything you just said (it also happened during the McCarthyism Commie scares) and I'm glad to see another Jerseyan that knows what's going on. Love the name by the way. Marty is the man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by njdevil View Post
    I have the opposite take, actually. I don't have a problem with the U.S. putting legislative pressure on Spain -- or for that matter, most of the rest of Europe. Many of these nations don't have functioning economies at this point without U.S. bailouts -- between direct lending from our Federal Reserve (IMO, that action goes well beyond their charter, not that many people in our government care about what a particular group or agency is supposed to be doing) and indirect lending through an institution such as the World Bank (which is also largely funded by the U.S. taxpayer, only our politicians have even less control over their actions even if its our money), the European economies are being propped up by money that will ultimately come from the United States taxpayer.

    I follow the Second Golden Rule here: He who has the gold, makes the rules. If we can't use our money as leverage to make all these European nations follow responsible spending patterns, the least we can do is force them to pass some laws that are in our interests even if it isn't in theirs. Personally, I'd prefer that Spain (among others) cuts their welfare state down to some sustainable size that doesn't require constant infusion of American dollars to maintain.... but I'll settle for something like this in the short-term.

    If the United States entirely "minded its own business" and didn't interfere at all, there'd be massive riots and perhaps civil war in Spain (and Greece and Italy and Ireland and Portugal and many others) when the people realized their politicians sold them a bill of goods they have no possible way to pay for. Frankly, that's fine by me.... but this is the situation we've gotten ourselves into at this stage of the game.
    USA have thier own probs at the mo so it's about time the USA government sorted thier own mess before trying to get involved in other countries. Just hope they don't try this shit here in the uk coz things are strained brtween us as it is we already had to stand our ground with EU. The UK government wouldn't pass this due to the backlash it would face at home.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BennysGoHome View Post
    Gauss, I'm a Libertarian (See: Ron Paul 2012). I believe in getting out of other countries and sound financials so I hope that's not what you mean by "extremists" (although you don't trust TV news so probably not.) It's always good to have conversations with people that know whats up. Republican or Democrat are just terms, they're really both the same policy-wise. Feel free to hit me up whenever if you wanna talk about this stuff. I love having civil-minded political discussions. I will admit I may have gotten the figures backwards and stuff like the SOPA and the NDAA keeps me up at night. The elimination of Habeus Corpus for U.S. citizens is a very frightening precedent.
    1) Ron Paul isn't an extremist. I actually think he is pretty reasonable and rational on the whole. I can respect that because I can look at him and I know exactly how he will run the country.

    2) Also, I don't like people calling him a Libertarian... He is a very loose Libertarian, even if you consider him a Statist Libertarian (i.e. a Libertarian who believes that there needs to be a common framework/authority figure: the "State").

    The only reason I say this is Libertarianism, much like Socialism, is so broad in its views that people can use it as a weapon to paint someone as a "weirdo" when he really isn't. Particularly when you consider that there is a branch of Libertarianism that is basically anarchy (i.e. letting a market-driven, free-society propagate and simply allowing the market to be the system of checks and balances we have now).

    I will admit though that his views on Government spending, War, and Social freedoms are all rooted in Libertarian views. He isn't for the elimination of a tax system though (typically a staple of Libertarian philosophy), and he does believe that the principle operation of the Government extends beyond common defense and a justice system, which typically Libertarians don't believe. Again, its difficult for me to say these things outside of generalities because there are 5 or 6 sub-philosophies within Libertarianism. Much like Socialism its rooted on a central philosophy (i.e. The central purpose of Government is to protect and ensure personal liberties for an entire society), but the 'how' has a whole lot of variance.

    3) Yeah, NDAA stuff does scare me as well simply because, much like SOPA, its worded so vaguely. Its written like "Well, we have the right to suspend all the time except in <blah> cases." Its exception driven instead of being specific.

    Side-note: Sorry for de-railing this into politics, I just don't want to present the picture that I think Ron Paul is an extremist or that I am talking about guys like him.

    The people I am talking about are authoritarians, who think its the Government's job to police every aspect of our lives. I'm talking about the people who think things like NDAA are a good idea, Obamacare/SOPA are good, etc. Those are extremists.

    Particularly if you are of the same philosophical viewpoint I am, that being the Government derives all authority from the threat of violence. There extremism derives from the fact that their routes aren't open to compromise or evolution, it naturally ends up being "Do it my way or I will start taking things from you."

    Quote Originally Posted by njdevil View Post
    It isn't taught in schools, because it isn't politically correct to do so.... but the United States suspended Habeus Corpus back during the Civil War. One among many, many atrocities committed by the Abraham Lincoln presidency against the American people while prosecuting the Civil War, and part of the laundry list of grievances held by southern state governments about Washington's intrustion into their affairs and overruling of their rights.
    1) I don't know what school you went to, but I was taught this in civics class. The civil war had already started when Lincoln suspended it, I haven't taken a history class that went over the civil war in about 7 years but if I remember correctly he did so to prevent having to bomb Baltimore after the Civil War started. I don't remember the specifics but a group in Maryland wanted to secede and mass riots had broken out in Baltimore. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus so martial law could be imposed (you can't have martial law and habeas corpus) as he saw it a better option than taking Baltimore with the US Army. Remember, war had been declared at this point, violence had broken out and Lincoln had a duty to protect DC.

    What scared me in particular about this historical account is that there was a Supreme Court decision that this was unconstitutional AT THE TIME, but apparently Lincoln had the authority to ignore the decision because war had been declared. Kind of makes you wonder about the dynamic of war vs. human rights, also makes me appreciate stuff like the Geneva convention and the UN even more.

    2) I'd be careful about how you phrase things too because the civil war was sparked by a difference in philosophy over the self-direction state governments had versus the centralized authority of the federal government. I'm only saying this because the last sentence in your first paragraph is worded kind of weird... Like Lincoln was some tyrant suspending human rights all over the place and fucking over southern states.

    While Slavery wasn't the cause, it was a foundation to the divide I mentioned above. Lincoln was willing to uphold the northern state's ban on Slavery as well as their efforts to prevent slaves from returning to southern states because the Federal government was not willing to decree slavery legal and was not willing to extend slavery out to the new states that were to inevitably be created at the time.

    End result was southern states were put in a minority, at the time they were allowed to retain slaves (simply because there was no agreement in the federal government... Slave states wanted to keep it, non-Slave states didn't, etc, etc), but they viewed it as Lincoln under-mining their rights by not allowing them to exercise the authority of their laws.

    Its one of those things where Slavery was the issue on the table, but it wasn't the core of the argument. The core of the argument was what authority does the federal government have? Is it a forum for state compromise or is it the primary authority figure?

    I'm not sure there is a right answer to these questions to be honest, if you flip the tables and allowed the Southern states to uphold their rights, you are effectively encouraging them to go into northern states to reclaim their property (remember the time period please), putting this weird situation on the table of where does one state's rights end and the next one's begin?

    Yes, Lincoln's election was the catalyst to it starting the war too, but once northern states started granting asylum to escaped slaves the civil war was inevitable. If it wasn't Lincoln and the south seceding, it woulda been the Democrat who was pro-slavery running against him and the north would have seceded.

    You can place the habeas corpus thing at Lincoln's feet, yes, but not the entirety of the civil war.
    Last edited by Gauss; 01-10-2012 at 11:30 AM.
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