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Banning used games on the MS 720 will be the best thing for Sony...

This is a discussion on Banning used games on the MS 720 will be the best thing for Sony... within the General PS3 Discussion forum, part of the Everything PlayStation; And I thought Online Passes were bad......

  1. #41
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    And I thought Online Passes were bad...


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    If Microsoft does this I will be really happy, but sad. Eventually Sony & Nintendo will follow.

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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicant81 View Post
    This is all pointing to one direction, that works out well for most parties involved. A solution that will equal lower production costs, simpler availability and the complete and absolute obliteration of the middle man all together. All signs are pointing towards to creators of games going completely digital with their sales and eliminating physical copies all together in the not so distant future.

    People who complain about not being able to afford new games are a seriously laughable lot. What makes you think you are entitled to get to play games at your own individual whim. If you can't see the damage you're causing to the overall industry by not buying new, and consistently thinking that buying used doesn't harm anybody, you're only kidding yourself. Gaming is a privilege, not a right.

    I would expect somewhere within the next 3-5 years for nearly all games (there might be a few hold outs, or collector's edition bundles sprinkled here and there for an even more exuberant price) to be released on the SEN, XBLA, or the Nintendo Network in order to see maximum returns on sales.

    So cherish those new book smells, and the joy of unwrapping a new title, because I don't expect it to be around here that much longer with the current direction the tea leaves are prognosticating.
    You are aware that the whole "Used Game Sales hurt the industry" tripe is complete BS, right? They were NEVER going to see another penny from that game in the first place - whether I traded it in at Gamestop, or gave it to my buddy to play.

    They already made whatever money they were going to make on that copy the moment it shipped to the store for sale. The stores are the ones who pay for the games and give the devs/publishers their money - not us. All OUR money does is help that store recoup their losses for buying that shipment of games.

    That goes for stores from Target to Best Buy as well as GameStop to Play n Trade.

    The reason game companies start losing money when a game sells poorly, is because the stores end up ordering less and less copies of said game - which in turns results in less and less money going to the developer/publisher.

    This is how retail works. Company makes the goods. Store buys the goods. Store sells the goods for whatever price they choose [There is no actual limit on what they can charge. MSRP is just what the Company feels their product is worth. That's why you see stores having different prices for the exact same thing.], store makes back money on what they bought, and uses money to buy more goods.

    This is the reason Online Passes and the like are such BS.

    No other retail industry does bull like this - no other retail industry acts like this in regards to second hand purchases.

    My used purchase isn't hurting anything anymore than borrowing the game from my neighbor. The only difference is that the store makes money, and that money gets used to purchase more shipments of games, and keep the store open.

    If I go and buy a designer shirt at the thrift store, should I have to pay Roc-a-Wear, Tommy Hilfiger or DKNY for the "privilege" of being able to wash it?

    I don't have to pay Warner Bros. an extra $10 to watch the extra content on my DVD of Batman Begins.

    I don't have to pay Roadrunner Records extra money to be able to listen to my Theory of a Deadman CD on another CD player.

    Why then should I have to pay EA for the "privilege" of being able to access all of the content of a game I just got from my friend, or got for a slight discount at GameStop?

    Why should I be forced to pay them more for a game, just to be able to play it?

    You know what else occurs? It was brought up by Mayus: What happens when a company inevitably goes under because their game didn't sell as well as they'd hoped, and they ended up not making their money back? They stop printing their games. It stops being made, and you no longer have any means of attaining a new copy of it - not without paying through the nose for it.

    There will always come a time when you want a game and have no other way of attaining it, other than buying it used.

    Also. Say I want to play a game at a friend's house, and he/she doesn't have it? I'd have to bring my entire console over to their house just to do so because my copy wouldn't work on their system - it would be considered "used" by their system.

    The only time I should ever have to do that is if they don't own the damn console.

    In no way is this "good" - as njdevil pointed out - stores like GameStop will simply find another way to start making their money back on games they purchased, since a large part of what they made before will be cut by a move like this.

    WE will end up suffering because of it. They could very well start charging us far more for the games and peripherals they sell just to try and make a profit to be able to afford buying new shipments of games and accessories.

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    A few things will happen if this happens. I've sorta went into this on the sister Xbox 360 board on this forum:

    1) Sony and Nintendo are exactly going to follow suit. Well mainly Sony expect Nintendo's next system will have this feature
    2) People are going to start playing PC games
    3) Sony and Nintendo will see an influx of former MS customers
    4) Worst the rise of iPhone games.

    My advice on this is buy new. Your supporting developers so the underlings behind the big corparate people don't lose thier jobs and plus your supporting your favorite game series (IE Final Fantasy, Halo, Uncharted, Half-Life, Fenton's Adventures in AC-R...joke). People are buying used are hurting even the developers haven't given any reason to cause grief. I am saying is if you don't like what the publisher and/or developers of said game or company are doing than avoid buying and buy from the other guy. Hell if I need my FPS fix I've gotten the Orange Box games for my PC, If I need my RTS Fix I've got Heroes of Might and Magic series, or one popular game genre I don't like than I got another of the same type of that game I've hate to play.

    What i am seeing is more used than new and boy next generation we're all going to be using the SEN, Xbox Live, Steam, or the Nintendo Network. When that happens you can see the end of phyiscal form of games going bye.
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  5. #45
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    Online passes are crap! If they want me to buy a game new, well, it just pushed me away from doing it for that reason. I live in Korea, but my PSN is North American. Buying a new game with an online pass from here is pointless because the online pass is region coded. I can't play online even if I buy the game new. Why should I have to pay extra to ship it from overseas? I might as well save the X dollars and get it used since I'm prevented from using a service I would have gotten if I got it new, and wanted to buy it new, all because they want to region code things.

    Secondly, the used market has been around for decades. Eventually those systems are going to be unsupported by the company like with all the older systems like the NES/SNES/Genesis/Dreamcast/etc. This will cause the company long term harm because consumers will clue in that the system is not worth getting for the long term. Why buy it when I can't play anything on it a year or two after release? Oh, Great Game X is now sold out and not being printed...well crap, I just spent all this money on a system that I can't get the games for it.

    The only, and I repeat, only way this will work is if they match the prices of a DVD. If every game was the cost of a DVD, it might work but the companies won't do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post

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    This whole diatribe and a lot of absolutely irrelevant and non-tangible examples that are piss poor place keepers for the actual issue at hand are nice and dandy, but don't really address anything but a bunch of ridiculous things that aren't comparable. You can compare T-Shirts, and DVDs, and music all day - but digital sales of other entertainment mediums have proved quite profitable, and saved some industries and even promoted foreign products to a global stage without import costs.

    You don't want to address the rest of my claims that digital is going to happen, and soon - and be the standard medium because of used sales becoming too much of a burden on the industry - believe what you want. I don't think for a single moment that a used game sale isn't lost opportunity for a new game sale - and in turn more revenue for the gaming industry as a whole, and no random comparison to another product that you present in a half-ass comparison is going to change that thought process.

    You want to play a two player game, and your buddy only has one controller, you bring an extra controller. You want to play a PSN title that your buddy doesn't own - you bring your console (something I do regularly enough that I have the styrofoam from the PS3 box in a carrying bag when I go to friends house for gaming sessions). This has been how my friends and I have been gaming this entire generation by bringing either our consoles or hard drives with us to play our games.

    But hey, if a digital marketplace has every title released readily available within a few clicks, and has instantly availability of all titles without having to deal with the cost of shelf space, the risk of a lost sale to an already sold copy that gives nothing back to the producer of the product is such a bad thing - why don't you put forth some bad analogies to that point as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GMPunk View Post
    I personally do not buy used games just for the fact that I don't know who has had to before me, how they treated it, and what condition it is in. I would rather buy a new games then used. But being a Gamestop employee, I think this is an awful idea to cut out used game sales, especially for the Xbox because of the potential backwords compatible and the large library it has. The majority of people that I deal with at Gamestop, if they have the option of buying used they will buy it because they are saving money. And all this is doing is hurting trade-in stores like us because they do not receive any kind of royalties. But hontesly do they really need it? Game companies are charging $64.19(US + tax), and they sell millions of copies, is it really hurting them at all?
    What this guy said ! When I was on US on vacations I decide to shop like crazy and the only money I got left were enough to buy 2 games. But I decided to save money and just buy 1. So I was hoping to find a good game at a good price at Gamestop, I found Bordelands GOTY edition both used and new, the only difference between this two were 5 dollars, I was like let's buy it used at 34.99 rather than 39.99, I saved 5 dollars ! New always worth it, ALWAYS. When I got finally at home (I live in Colombia) and I was really overhyped about playing it since I heard a lot of awesome reviews, to my surprise the disc was corrupted and broken, Every time I played it, it made my ps3 sounds weird and instantly shut it off. I was like.... Why I didnt buy it new ? I wasted 34 dollars and I was just pissed to GameStop, How they could sell me a broken game ? People please, Buying new is always worth it.

    On the other hand, I fail to understand how Microsoft does really gets affected in the used market. The only affected people in the used market is the publishers, If Microsoft loses contracts because publishers dislikes the pirate rate of Xbox games is their own fault though I dont think that's the point of banning used games, their console is one of the most pirated sistems and I could care less about Xbox360 in general. There's multiple ways to face the used market but this is by far the most ridiculious way, Go microsoft do it !
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicant81 View Post
    This whole diatribe and a lot of absolutely irrelevant and non-tangible examples that are piss poor place keepers for the actual issue at hand are nice and dandy, but don't really address anything but a bunch of ridiculous things that aren't comparable. You can compare T-Shirts, and DVDs, and music all day - but digital sales of other entertainment mediums have proved quite profitable, and saved some industries and even promoted foreign products to a global stage without import costs.
    Digital sales =/= the elimination of used sales. Also, digital isn't that convenient for the majority of people who have craptastic internet connections, like myself. While high speed internet connections are far more common now than they were - they are in no way ready to offer a purely digital means of game purchasing.

    A 10MB MP3 =/= A 20GB game.

    I'm not comparing T-Shits to Games. I'm comparing the companies' PRACTICES.

    Making you pay for content that's already on the disc is complete and utter crap. People bitched when Capcom released "DLC" for a mode in RE5 that turned out to already be on the RE5 disc - but people are all for paying money for content that's on the game disc you bought for a discount, or borrowed?

    You don't have to pay a music downloading site extra money to be able to put your MP3's on multiple MP3 players. You don't have to pay movie companies extra money to watch the digital version of their movie that's included on the disc if you got it second hand.

    Both industries have used/second hand sales as well, and they also have digital outlets. Yet both have managed to survive just fine without having to resort to this ridiculous system.

    Almost ALL retail industries have second-hand sales of some kind. NONE of them do anything like this.

    You don't want to address the rest of my claims that digital is going to happen, and soon - and be the standard medium because of used sales becoming too much of a burden on the industry - believe what you want. I don't think for a single moment that a used game sale isn't lost opportunity for a new game sale - and in turn more revenue for the gaming industry as a whole, and no random comparison to another product that you present in a half-ass comparison is going to change that thought process.
    They aren't a burden. That's nothing but jargon from the heads of these money hungry corporations to justify their use of this crap. They don't hurt anything NEARLY as bad as they make it sound.

    Same as the whole "Oh noes, piracy is gonna kill our industry" crap that movie and music companies try to spout. First they thought cassette recorders would kill the music industry. Then blank CD-Rs. Then VCRs would end the movie industry.

    Now they think file sharing will kill them.


    Last I checked, they were still here, and still going pretty damn strong.

    Same goes for the games industry. Used and second-hand sales have been around forever. And yet, somehow, we've gone from games with two white lines hitting a square pixel - to games that damn near mimic life itself with the amount of detail that placed in them.

    --

    Again - they already made their money on that particular copy of the game. Once I bought it, it's no longer new, and will forever be used - even if I never, ever play it.

    Digital sales of games isn't as feasible as you think. It works well for industries like movies and music because their file sizes really aren't that big. A couple Gigs at most for a good quality HD movie, and a few hundred megs for a nice quality album.

    Even on a terrible connection [Like my own], that's not too bad to handle.

    Gaming is a different story. I'd rather head to the store and buy a copy of Skyrim or LA Noire than buy it on Steam or the PS Store and have to wait an ungodly amount of time for it to download. And connections like MINE are far more common than super fast, fiber-optic hyper speed connections like what Verizon and the like offer.

    Plus, what about connections who like to throttle after downloading a certain amount of data? Or those who actually have limits on how much they can download a month? They get screwed over because they want to buy said game, but can't download it because they are either getting a speed slower than dial up - or they used up their quota.

    I can barely watch Youtube on this connection without it being throttled into oblivion.

    Pure digital for gaming is a very bad idea right now. And will remain so until ISPs actually step up and remove their limits - and make decent connections affordable for everyone. $100+ a month is a lot of money to spend for the luxury of being able to download games.

    You want to play a two player game, and your buddy only has one controller, you bring an extra controller. You want to play a PSN title that your buddy doesn't own - you bring your console (something I do regularly enough that I have the styrofoam from the PS3 box in a carrying bag when I go to friends house for gaming sessions). This has been how my friends and I have been gaming this entire generation by bringing either our consoles or hard drives with us to play our games.
    Taking over a controller to a friends house, or bring your console over to play a downloaded game that they don't own is in no way the same inconvenience as having to bring your console over to play a disc you paid for on a console that they already own.

    Not in the least.

    The first two examples are perfectly reasonable. Perfectly justifiable. The last is not. He owns the console already. I own the game. All I should have to do is bring my DISC over to his house, with a controller or whatever else, and then we play.

    Nothing more.

    But hey, if a digital marketplace has every title released readily available within a few clicks, and has instantly availability of all titles without having to deal with the cost of shelf space, the risk of a lost sale to an already sold copy that gives nothing back to the producer of the product is such a bad thing - why don't you put forth some bad analogies to that point as well?
    I never said anything about a digital market place being bad [Obviously not - Steam works, XBLA and PSN do well. But I can almost guarantee you that hard copy sales of full games available on these services are higher than their digital counterparts.]

    I was talking about the banning of used games being played on a new console. That is complete and utter crap, and if you think that's a good idea, then there may be something seriously wrong with you.

    But digital isn't that great of an idea right now. Key words being "right now". And frankly, going purely digital is a horrible idea, in any case.

    Yes, used sales can result in a lost sale or two, but it's nowhere near as bad as these corporate figureheads would have you believe.

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  9. #49
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    If the video game industry is worried about their bottom line then they need to give the consumer an alternative to used sales, without the need for forcing them into a back corner.
    Sure, this all becomes a moot point the moment everything goes to digital download since that would be the only way to get the games, but until that time comes they need to not try and kill the used sale market.
    I forget who said it, maybe it was the guy who made Minecraft or the guy from Valve, I forget who, but he said that if you price the game reasonable and just make good games then people will buy them.

    But on an entirely different note, does Microsoft not realize that most used game stores, either your EB/Gamestop or your independant retailer, don't just sell games. They also sell gaming culture. These stores rely on used game sales to make the bottom line black instead of red. If, for the sake of argument, Microsoft is able to pull off this tech and kills the used game market then a lot of these stores are going to shut down. Where will you then buy your toys, magazines, t-shirts, etc, associated with those games? They might gain sales from the games, but they lose a lot of secondary merchandise sales in the process.

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    I have read all arguments and all sides from everyone and I will have to say this is a very heated debate. But at the same time as someone who trades in games I have a question. I have already bought a game new and traded it in. Am I suposed to fork out another 60.00 to play it again when I have already given the devs money already the first time I bought the game? I have taken advantage of Eb games promotions and have gotten rid of games that sadly I haven't been finished with. And to buy them brand new again is a waste of money. So why should gamers like me suffer when I have already bought the game new once already?

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    Quote Originally Posted by y2cloud View Post
    I have read all arguments and all sides from everyone and I will have to say this is a very heated debate. But at the same time as someone who trades in games I have a question. I have already bought a game new and traded it in. Am I suposed to fork out another 60.00 to play it again when I have already given the devs money already the first time I bought the game? I have taken advantage of Eb games promotions and have gotten rid of games that sadly I haven't been finished with. And to buy them brand new again is a waste of money. So why should gamers like me suffer when I have already bought the game new once already?
    Your supposed to suffer. J/K

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    Well personally I have a weird condition in that I will not buy almost ANYTHING second-hand. I just imagine the previous owners have taken a sh*t on it or something!

    But it doesn't cost me at all as I buy about 90% of my games when they are in the bargain bucket or just above the bucket. Saves me a whole lotta money and I get clean, crisp copies of games. I also do this with films, books and almost everything else.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    No other retail industry does bull like this - no other retail industry acts like this in regards to second hand purchases.
    Think it was Fox, but a company in the movie industry started this a year or 2 ago with movies that go into the red box and block buster and such. So no, video games aren't the only industry that does it, and no it's not complete bs.
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    not allowing used games is a bad move. I seldom pick up used games. Only buy couple games threw out the year used and I buy dozen or more games a year. Its either I couldn't afford the game or didn't notice it out. By the time I noticed its out its no longer buyable new. There have been a few that I picked up used and end up likeing like borderlands. Yes it will cut profits for gamestop and hastings. Since companys like hastings won't be allow to rent out games anymore for people to try games out since they will be used. Its bad for business and consumers all round

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWLZilla View Post
    I feel like developers will start selling "download only games" kinda like steam and sell games cheaper, but make more profit in the long run. And I think thats where mircosoft prob wants to hit in the next generation is just download games not physical copies of games.
    thats excatly what MS want. i remember read something about the next MS console only being able to download games (no disk tray) i can't quote were i read it but i did.

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    I hate this. I understand why they do it, but since I would be being affected directly (if I got a MS 720) I just can't approve of it. There's more than meets the eye with used games, what about lending games, what about games that are out of stock/rare? What about people who simply can't afford brand new games (used games are really cheap in some places)?

    Plus, considering how things are going in global economy in general, if MS does this, I wouldn't be surprised if other companies start doing similar stuff with their products, with maybe even movies or books.

    But as I say, I can understand why they do it. They want to have the cake and eat it, too. But so do we most of the time. I just think that if I buy something I should be allowed to do what I want with it. I'm not altering the intellectual property in any way, I'm trying to get more people to enjoy a game, and if I profit from it the money is invested in the same industry. I don't really know if this will affect me trading games with a friend, for example, but still.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_leyenda View Post
    What about people who simply can't afford brand new games (used games are really cheap in some places)?
    They're SOL as far as I'm concerned. Just because you want something doesn't mean you should be able to go out and get it. If you can't afford a product at its set pricepoint, try saving up some money so you can afford it someday. Chances are you'll appreciate it more if you actually have to put a little effort into accumulating the resources needed to acquire the product.

    At the risk of turning this into a more political thread, isn't this the story of the housing market in the U.S.? Rather than save up for their "dream home" or settling for one they could afford, many people simply took advantage of the shortcuts offered them by various entities (the banks on one side, governmental pressure and promises on the other) to buy a house they couldn't otherwise afford. Now they're all crying about how they can't handle the mortgage and the rest of us responsible people should bail them out of their own mistakes.

    Buying and playing video games is not a right. It's a privilege. If you can't afford it, find a cheaper hobby and don't expect the rest of us to subsidize you. Don't expect the gaming companies to change their policies just to cater to you, either -- if they simply gave away their new games for free (or less than they cost to manufacture), there wouldn't be any gaming companies after a while and there wouldn't be any new games for you to play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by njdevil View Post
    They're SOL as far as I'm concerned. Just because you want something doesn't mean you should be able to go out and get it. If you can't afford a product at its set pricepoint, try saving up some money so you can afford it someday. Chances are you'll appreciate it more if you actually have to put a little effort into accumulating the resources needed to acquire the product.
    Thing is, I live in South America, and brand new games are $80 (Special Editions are around $140+) when they are released and take around a year for the price to lower to an affordable level. And I do understand you, but sadly:
    -Games are more expensive here than in the U.S.
    -People get less money here than in the U.S.
    I'm not whining or anything, obviously I can't compare 2 completely different countries, but I kinda HAVE to get used games if I want to play something relatively new, that or wait 2 years until the price is actually affordable for new games. And it's neither the developer's fault nor Sony's, nor my fault, but that's the way it is.

    And I agree with you, it's a privilege, and I choose to have this hobby and all, I can't afford new games but I CAN get used games, and that's what I do.
    The thing with Microsoft is that I never said it shouldn't be done, I said that I understood why they are doing it and that it makes sense, I just said that I don't approve of it since it would affect me directly. But if it happens, then, well, less games for me it is.
    Last edited by johnny_leyenda; 02-10-2012 at 08:58 AM. Reason: Typo

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