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Banning used games on the MS 720 will be the best thing for Sony...

This is a discussion on Banning used games on the MS 720 will be the best thing for Sony... within the General PS3 Discussion forum, part of the Everything PlayStation; Even the mention of banning used games should be enough for anyone to rethink there purchase of any MS product ...

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    Banning used games on the MS 720 will be the best thing for Sony...

    Even the mention of banning used games should be enough for anyone to rethink there purchase of any MS product if you ask me. This is pure blatant greed and a cash grab at the pure expense of the consumer. There is an economic divide that exists and there is clearly people who would not be playing video games if it were not for the used market. Where is the logic that says by banning the used games they will suddenly be able to afford the game. It makes no sense.

    I don't see authors screaming about the used book business, in fact I see libraries where you can get and read the book for NOTHING, just seeing MS talking about this makes me so happy I am supporting Sony right now, and please please Sony dont think of this as a good idea as it is not, not only is it a bad one the back lash from this will be huge, people dont usually like being raped by companies for every cent they have.

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    I hope MS loses alot of gamers and customers with this. Hopefully they will transfer over to Sony and the PS. It will benefit Sony and us. It is just a fact that gaming has become a big business. And the big companies are trying to get every last cent out of the gamers. But at what cost? Until the gamers are tired and stop buying new games. And that's were the used market comes in. People can buy really decent games against cheap prices on the used market nowadays. I'm ok with the online passes, it's a way for companies to still get some money out of the used market. But please stop hassling the gamers by pushing out every cent out of them..

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    I don't think theres alot of uproar as its not official, but if MS officially announces this look out, and I agree with you about the online passes, a used game does not give you the right to use the servers for online play, if you want to go online use the servers of the companies then buy an online pass. Once you purchase that game it should be your right to be able to sell it as well, a real thorny issue I am glad MS is dealing with lol


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    Take it from someone who used to work in a business that has a heavy "used" component: the used/re-sale business is almost solely for the benefit of the middleman who buys back a product that the initial consumer is done with and sells it to a new consumer. While the middleman certainly takes some risk in that (s)he buys a product that (s)he might not be able to sell again, (s)he is putting a large enough mark-up on the product to alleviate most of that risk.

    Seriously. What's the difference in the price of a new video game and a used video game? Not a lot. What's the difference in what the middleman (e.g. GameStop) pays to buy back a video game and the price at which the middleman re-sells it at? A heck of a lot more.

    ....

    As far as I'm concerned, the game manufacturer and the console manufacturer have a right to protect their business and make it harder for those who would profit off their labors without investing the same efforts to do so. When one buys a "used video game", the company that made the game and the creative efforts behind it aren't seeing an additional dime.... and that has ramifications for the market as a whole. It means game prices as a whole rise to ensure the originator gets what they feel is "fair compensation" for their efforts. It means there are fewer games even created, because there isn't as much money out there to compensate the manufacturers in the first place.... especially titles that might be more "niche" and have a far smaller margin for error.

    ....

    Finally, don't compare video games to books, they're completely different industries. It makes about as much sense as comparing video games to cars, or video games to real estate. It's a different market, and it's viewed in a different light by the Powers That Be. Yes, you have libraries that lend books.... but it's hardly "free" the way you make it out to be. The reason you can walk into a library, whip out a plastic card, and walk out with a book without forking over some cash is that libraries are supported by the tax dollars of all us working stiffs. They get their money from the taxpayer by way of a central government, regardless of whether those taxpayers choose to use the library's services and without any concern for the desire of the taxpayer to see library funded as opposed to something we feel would be "a better use" of our tax dollars.

    If you don't like Microsoft changing the "model" so that used games can't be played on their consoles, don't patronize their video game console and their other products. That's your choice, and you're free to act as you will in that manner. If enough consumers follow suit, Microsoft will take steps to change.... but I don't think it is a bright idea to hold your breath over the issue. I could see Microsoft actually benefitting from the change in the way of game developers flocking to them to similarly escape the re-sale market that takes money out of their pockets. And if places like GameStop decide they don't want to sell Microsoft products as a protest, they'll simply find another way to get their product to the consumer.
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    Good above post.


    And we will all go to PC when ps4 does the same. Which I hope it won´t.
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    Quote Originally Posted by njdevil View Post

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    While that is true EB Games is responsible for a large part of New Games sales because people come in and trade their old games they are done with towards the purchase of new games. If you eliminate the ability to trade in games consumers will have to be more picky on which games they buy.

    Used games are also important because unlike Movies and Books games go out of print very quickly. So if I buy a system late into the cycle I may have missed out on playing some of those early gems simply because the company stopped producing copies of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_mayus View Post
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    While that is true EB Games is responsible for a large part of New Games sales because people come in and trade their old games they are done with towards the purchase of new games. If you eliminate the ability to trade in games consumers will have to be more picky on which games they buy.

    Used games are also important because unlike Movies and Books games go out of print very quickly. So if I buy a system late into the cycle I may have missed out on playing some of those early gems simply because the company stopped producing copies of it.
    That's a very good point. Whenever I see someone trade in games at my local EB Games store, they turn around and use that money to either pre-order or purchase a new game. This is how they continually fund the purchasing of new games. If you take away this option, they become very limited to the number of games they can buy and will buy fewer titles.

    If the 720 doesn't support new games, they should adjust the pricing to reflect this. Maybe have new games set at say $40-50 for popular titles and $30-40 for the less popular titles just as an example. Then again, all of this is a rumor right now.
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    njdevil, the producers do not need protected as much as you think they do. If not for used games, we would have "new" games on all the shelves that were over a year old and still 50-60 bucks. If you wanted a game you would have to wait 3 years until it's actually a reasonable price.

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    Wow.... online pass was one thing, but this takes the cake. The online pass at least had a little fairness to it, even though it's stupid. I can see the idea of getting at least a little money out of a used game. Downright banning it seems to be an incredibly move. If you stop it, you stop customers playing it, that may not have bought it otherwise, and that person, would maybe tell all of his friends about it, giving the game a bigger fanbase. Though I wouldn't pay that much attention for a rumor.




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    This can be argued so many way's should ford, chevy, dodge ect DRM the cars so when they are resold we should pay them again to be able to start the car. This is a fucking joke to even consider this. If this was not about a video game it would have been squashed by now. Say I go buy another Harley from an local owner, should I then again have to pony up more money to have a chip installed to drive my damn Harley I just paid for, come on people use common sense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wargazsem View Post
    This can be argued so many way's should ford, chevy, dodge ect DRM the cars so when they are resold we should pay them again to be able to start the car. This is a fucking joke to even consider this. If this was not about a video game it would have been squashed by now. Say I go buy another Harley from an local owner, should I then again have to pony up more money to have a chip installed to drive my damn Harley I ust paid for, come on people use common sense.
    But houses, cars, clothes etc are different than games. I cannot go and buy a new 2002 Ford anymore, nor does driving a car cost Ford any money. With games though if you buy something used and then go use Activision's servers you are now costing Activision money without paying them anything.

    Now that is my argument for online passes, see above for my argument on why there should be used games.

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    I personally do not buy used games just for the fact that I don't know who has had to before me, how they treated it, and what condition it is in. I would rather buy a new games then used. But being a Gamestop employee, I think this is an awful idea to cut out used game sales, especially for the Xbox because of the potential backwords compatible and the large library it has. The majority of people that I deal with at Gamestop, if they have the option of buying used they will buy it because they are saving money. And all this is doing is hurting trade-in stores like us because they do not receive any kind of royalties. But hontesly do they really need it? Game companies are charging $64.19(US + tax), and they sell millions of copies, is it really hurting them at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GMPunk View Post
    I personally do not buy used games just for the fact that I don't know who has had to before me, how they treated it, and what condition it is in. I would rather buy a new games then used. But being a Gamestop employee, I think this is an awful idea to cut out used game sales, especially for the Xbox because of the potential backwords compatible and the large library it has. The majority of people that I deal with at Gamestop, if they have the option of buying used they will buy it because they are saving money. And all this is doing is hurting trade-in stores like us because they do not receive any kind of royalties. But hontesly do they really need it? Game companies are charging $64.19(US + tax), and they sell millions of copies, is it really hurting them at all?
    How much of that do you think developers actually see? Developers don't make a lot on the sale of new games and due to how much is spent on developing games, and more importantly marketing games, you need to sell a ton of copies to even hope of making a profit.

    This is why so many game companies are going out of business, just look at THQ situation. People always point to how the gaming industry is taking in Billions every year but they tend to forget that number is mostly made up of games like Call of Duty or one shot titles like Skylanders or Dance Central. Most games, big budget games too, don't make near that kind of money (look at Resistance 3).

    So you can understand why developers aren't very happy with the used game market or piracy.

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    Awesome comments,

    I totally disagree with the comment about the middle man, the middle man has to pay for a brick and mortar store to sell the product, to hire staff to keep the store open, taxes rent there so much cost involved its not all profits, and thats like saying the greed of the developer supercedes the greed of the store, the middle man also pushes new reservations like crazy offering unique dlc for reserving there copy. Also how about the people that want to trade in there games which they get a better value for or what if they just want to sell it using an online ad there does not have to be a middleman.

    I dont care how you want to dress it up, they allowed used music cds to be sold forever you didnt see this happen to them it makes no sense no matter how you try and dress it up, it will cut deep to the point of MS saying sorry I guaruntee it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_mayus View Post
    But houses, cars, clothes etc are different than games. I cannot go and buy a new 2002 Ford anymore, nor does driving a car cost Ford any money. With games though if you buy something used and then go use Activision's servers you are now costing Activision money without paying them anything.

    Now that is my argument for online passes, see above for my argument on why there should be used games.
    Simple fact is the economy is shit in case you were not aware of it. This idea will drive people away, will drive me away not because I can't afford to buy new. I won't spend $60 bucks for a game with a 5 to 10 hour at best campaign that is a joke and a rip off. I paid for Skyrim because you get your moneys worth. I used to buy every Tiger Woods game until EA stump broke everyone last year with a partial game and $200 worth of day one dlc mainly golf course's you needed to play a full season. So not all but most game companies have brought this on them selves.

    Now I won't bitch about online passes, at first it pissed me off. Then after I let it sink in I understand the point. But to lock out a system/game is a freaking joke. For example say you don't do MP, can you honestly tell me a 5 hour campaign game "BF3" is worth $60 bucks? No it is not, that is why I have come to the side of the game companies for the online pass. I wanted to play the campaign so I rented it. I could care less about the MP.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wargazsem View Post
    Simple fact is the economy is shit in case you were not aware of it. This idea will drive people away, will drive me away not because I can't afford to buy new. I won't spend $60 bucks for a game with a 5 to 10 hour at best campaign that is a joke and a rip off. I paid for Skyrim because you get your moneys worth. I used to buy every Tiger Woods game until EA stump broke everyone last year with a partial game and $200 worth of day one dlc mainly golf course's you needed to play a full season. So not all but most game companies have brought this on them selves.

    Now I won't bitch about online passes, at first it pissed me off. Then after I let it sink in I understand the point. But to lock out a system/game is a freaking joke. For example say you don't do MP, can you honestly tell me a 5 hour campaign game is worth $60 bucks? No it is not, that is why I have come to the side of the game companies for the online pass. I wanted to play the campaign so I rented it. I could care less about the MP.
    I never said I was in favour of what MS is doing I just like to point out all the points on why it may be happening.

    Honestly I believe that MS started this rumour themselves to see if the public would accept it. If everyone seemed for the most part OK with it they would go through with their plans. If the public revolted (which is what seems to be happening) then they would chalk it up as a rumour and something they never considered in the first place. That is the great thing about forum boards, it is a free Focus Group

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    Oh great, I hope we don't get messages from all of our friends saying,

    ''Hi, I'm [Insert made up name] and I'm the assistant head of [Insert made up job] at Sony. As of [Insert made up date] the PS4 will copy the Xbox's genius move and make all used games banned! But don't worry! I, master ninja, snuck out secret information JUST so I can help a load of gullible nerds that I don't know at the risk of my job! If you send this message to everyone on your friends list then you will still be able to play used games! Cheers, [Insert made up name again].


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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_mayus View Post
    How much of that do you think developers actually see? Developers don't make a lot on the sale of new games and due to how much is spent on developing games, and more importantly marketing games, you need to sell a ton of copies to even hope of making a profit.

    This is why so many game companies are going out of business, just look at THQ situation. People always point to how the gaming industry is taking in Billions every year but they tend to forget that number is mostly made up of games like Call of Duty or one shot titles like Skylanders or Dance Central. Most games, big budget games too, don't make near that kind of money (look at Resistance 3).

    So you can understand why developers aren't very happy with the used game market or piracy.
    When you are only coming out with squeal games you are taking a big risk. When it comes to the 3rd game for a lot of games only your die-hard fans are going to go out and buy it and because either they loved the 2nd or hated the 2nd. You keeping only a fraction of the fans for a squeal because of the love/hate divide. When you are not going out with new IP's or innovating at all the fans are going to get bored with what the company is doing.

    Now Call of Duty breaks this mold because every game that comes out sells more and more copies because of the love for the franchise and the hold it has on people. But think about what came out for THQ this year, Saints Row 3, another WWE games, another Red Faction game. And this year they are coming out with another Darksiders, another WWE, and another UFC game. If you are not making anything new people are going to shy away from them because some people dont want the same old thing over and over. So it is not the customers fault, I'd say it is the developers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GMPunk View Post
    When you are only coming out with squeal games you are taking a big risk. When it comes to the 3rd game for a lot of games only your die-hard fans are going to go out and buy it and because either they loved the 2nd or hated the 2nd. You keeping only a fraction of the fans for a squeal because of the love/hate divide. When you are not going out with new IP's or innovating at all the fans are going to get bored with what the company is doing.

    Now Call of Duty breaks this mold because every game that comes out sells more and more copies because of the love for the franchise and the hold it has on people. But think about what came out for THQ this year, Saints Row 3, another WWE games, another Red Faction game. And this year they are coming out with another Darksiders, another WWE, and another UFC game. If you are not making anything new people are going to shy away from them because some people dont want the same old thing over and over. So it is not the customers fault, I'd say it is the developers.
    THQ also released Homelands this year not to mention the U-draw tablet for PS3 and 360. Also WWE and SR3 both sold great so that isn't the problem.

    The problem comes from there only being so much money to go around so if everyone and their grandma bought MW3 they may only buy one other game that year and wait for the other games to either go used or cheaper. Now in both cases (used or cheaper) that developer is seeing none or less money and that also hurts their bottom line. The success of a game is measured in the first month sales, so if the game tanks in the first month (and tanks could still mean a million sold) then it really affects the company making the game.

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    If this happens, I expect new game prices to drop at least $20. Because they don't have to make up for the loss in sales. Like how grocery stores upmark their products to cover stolen goods. Do you think this will happen? Absolutely not, because it's the entertainment industry and they'll make a grimy dollar any way they can. we as consumers have to step up and revolt against this b$.
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