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PS4 Codenamed Orbis; Will block used games

This is a discussion on PS4 Codenamed Orbis; Will block used games within the General PS3 Discussion forum, part of the Everything PlayStation; i have my doubts about this, but why is anyone thinking about the PS4 when we still have good things ...

  1. #81
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    i have my doubts about this, but why is anyone thinking about the PS4 when we still have good things coming from the PS3?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss View Post
    I know, its weird SCE doesn't offer a development kit for the Xbox 720... Its almost like they are competitors or something...
    thats the point.


    it was to show the orbis dev site works while putting anything else that isn't ps3/vita doesn't work.

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    This blocking used game thing (True or not) is a terrible idea..

    You will basically be reduced to buying a game and being stuck with it. No one will want to buy a used game if you will just have to pay the difference anyway. No one will want to risk a damaged disc when you can get a new one for the same price. They are trying to get more money, but will loose a lot more money than this plan will allow them to gain. Also only about 2/3 of the people who buy the systems play online and ever connect to PSN. I personally will buy a LOT less games if this policy is put in place.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss View Post
    Lots of unconfirmed rumors and anonymous sources in this article... Too many for me to take it seriously (sorry, but there are 4 major bombs in that Kotaku article).

    At face value a logical argument could be made for Sony to try this, the reality starts diverging away from that as I am not sure there is alot of success in this model. The problem is this route falls under various DMCA and DRM laws, not to mention the public opinion factors in here. I think I've said repeatedly that Pub/Devs have a right to ensure they get properly compensated but they can't hinder the inherent freedoms of trading what we physically own.

    I'll pull a quote from the Free Software Foundation founder Richard Stallman, while its referring to open source and not this, I feel the idea is the same...

    "Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. “Free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer."

    The big difference here, for me, is that online pass doesn't really hurt your "free speech," its a service controlling mechanism. You can still sell your game as you please and all you are (theoretically) forbidden from is the additional content service. There is some gray area there, but the critical content is not touched and you are still able to exchange that as your freedom.

    These programs will fail because they hinder a basic freedom.

    Also, Orange, I'd stop being a prick. Most of what Dr. Mayus and the various others who were saying OP wasn't a big deal was that if you buy the games new then you lose nothing. Meanwhile if you buy via used you have to pay what the game would cost new anyway, meaning you aren't really being fucked over (particularly considering your used purchase is already screwing over the Pub).

    It exists in an area that really isn't unethical or immoral from a business angle, in poor taste? Maybe. But you aren't really being fucked for not getting angry over it. Publishers/Developers have a right to ensure they are properly compensated for their work.
    well spoken

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    forbes speaking logic again

    The Coming War on Used Games - Forbes

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    This comment really makes sense to me on this article.

    When you buy physical media, you are also purchasing the ability to resell. Naturally, when you buy digital media, the product should be cheaper as you have one less feature (the ability to resell).
    Case in point: my Economics teacher in college wrote his own textbook and put the homework in perforated paper in the back. He wouldn’t accept homework that didn’t come from his book. As you would guess, the book was $60, rather than the $120 that most other Economics textbooks were going for. Was this better? Probably. The only exception is for people who sell their book at the end of the class who make more than $60 on the sale, and this is assuming that their version is still current (which is unlikely when you see how most versioning works with college textbooks).
    It is beyond me why the eBook and soon-to-be eGame markets don’t or won’t reflect this.
    Most everyone agrees that digital distribution is superior for ease-of-use, but the way these companies are totally flubbing it is astounding.
    I don’t expect console games to be Steam prices – but I do expect new games to cost around $40 if I lose the ability to resell.
    I laugh every time I read that “developers” are upset because used games eats their sales – this is how all media has been since time began, get over yourselves. And don’t screw up digital distribution out of greed.

    He has a point!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange-Vision View Post
    personally i'd rather see gamestop/eb games go out of business, there the major problem and all they do is rip people off, i sell all my games through online classifieds and get realisitc prices, but then you have people going in trading there game in they spent 67 on for like $20, then someone comes and decides to buy pre=owned for $5 cheaper which is ultimately whats hurting the devs. My question is why the developers support places liek eb games and gamestop, giving them pre-order incentives and store specific crap, while they screw over the consumer who isn't the real problem. What they should be doing is hitting the used game retailers, but instead there going to screw us over, which in the end is going to hurt next-gen sales.
    The publishers/devs give retailers pre-order bonuses to drive new sales. The pre-prder bonuses later go for sale as DLC and anyone who bought used can get the bonus for a price. The publisher/dev gets new sales and DLC sales.

    If you sell via online classifieds, ebay, etc., you're selling to another consumer so you would get a better price. But GameStop isn't buying your game to play, they're buying it to re-sell it.

    GameStop/EB Games get the games from the publishers at wholesale prices and use the profit from the new sale to keep the lights on, pay staff, and order new games. If they bought a used game at very close to their retail price, it's a losing proposition for them. They'd be better off just getting more from the publisher at wholesale. They sell used games for less than new so they must buy used games for less than wholesale.

    EA made 1 billion dollars with it's digital sales last year; some of it from selling online passes and DLC to people who bought used games.

    While I'd personally prefer there not be different pre-order incentives at different retailers for the same product, I understand that the publishers/devs are trying to encourage each retailer to increase their initial orders and give them something to hype. If it's the case that you want multiple different pre-order incentives, they did their job right. They are not screwing you, they are offering you a product that you want. What you should do is either buy new (no pre-order) or used and buy the eventual DLC pack, or don't in protest, or better yet, don't buy the game at all if it uses those tactics.

    I agree that selling a preowned game for only $5 less than retail isn't great. It should be $10 less than retail. But if they did that, then they'd be buying that 67 dollar game in your example back for more like 17.50 instead of 20.
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    in response to the comments on digital as one of the posters was saying that places like eb games buys at wholesale and sells for probably close to twice as much what they paid. Theoretically then, digital distribution should be great, as not only are you cutting costs it takes to produce the physical media (boxes,manuals, discs) but your also cutting the middle man. However in reality, for some reason digital games on xbox marketplace and psn are the same price knew as there physical copies, and then drop in price long after their physical counterparts. Case in point, your paying just as much if not more down the road for less, as you can't resell, you don't actually have a physical product, and it costs bandwidth to download. So I guess my question to that becomes why the hell the prices aren't much lower, like why not sell to us what they sell to the middle men? I guarantee if games were digital for $30 or even $40 new compared to $60 at the store, a huge number of people would buy digital, used games would be much less dominant and developers would get there money. Again, it all comes down to greed, and the issue is that for some reason the developers aren't willing to make a logical compromise, which in turn is only hurting them in the long run.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange-Vision View Post
    in response to the comments on digital as one of the posters was saying that places like eb games buys at wholesale and sells for probably close to twice as much what they paid. Theoretically then, digital distribution should be great, as not only are you cutting costs it takes to produce the physical media (boxes,manuals, discs) but your also cutting the middle man. However in reality, for some reason digital games on xbox marketplace and psn are the same price knew as there physical copies, and then drop in price long after their physical counterparts. Case in point, your paying just as much if not more down the road for less, as you can't resell, you don't actually have a physical product, and it costs bandwidth to download. So I guess my question to that becomes why the hell the prices aren't much lower, like why not sell to us what they sell to the middle men? I guarantee if games were digital for $30 or even $40 new compared to $60 at the store, a huge number of people would buy digital, used games would be much less dominant and developers would get there money. Again, it all comes down to greed, and the issue is that for some reason the developers aren't willing to make a logical compromise, which in turn is only hurting them in the long run.
    This in point is why I have never bought a digital game that was more than $20. I am NEVER going to pay $60 for a download that will take more time to dl/install than it would take me to drive to the store and pick up a physical version and start playing it. I got ME2 recently on PSN for $20 and am loving it! Would I get ME3 the same way for $60? HELL NO!


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    Whether it's true or not (and it applies to Sony and Microsoft's new consoles), if it ends up happening then people are gonna be pissed. Furthermore, I'm betting it will have an impact on other markets as well. SO I'm hoping this isn't true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange-Vision View Post
    growing issue of DLC. Take street fighter x tekken for example, where you had a bunch of characters already on the disc that they could have easily included in the original product, but decided to jip everyone an extra $20 to get. To me that is bullshit, I'm okay with dlc if it came out after the fact as a later thought but blatently putting it in when it could easily have been included it just extremely cheap and greedy.This is another issue thats becoming worse and worse and day 1 dlc is becoming more and more prominent, what used to cost $60 for a new and complete game now ends up costing upwards of $100 for what used to just be included. This raises another interesting point about how the companies are further screwing us by not even selling us completed products upon release, but then you have people complaining the devs are not getting enough money meanwhile this big spike in dlc i'm sure is bringing in a large number of revenue.

    Easily included based on your uninformed opinion? Yeah there is alot of bs DLC out there, true. Day 1 DLC is its own can of worms... However games are concluded typically 2-4 months before they are released if they are released on disc. I don't like Day-1 DLC any more than the next guy, but its usually not nearly as bad as its painted out to be either.

    I'll set aside the fact I know of no game on the market which costs an "upwards of $100 for what used to just be included" (seriously, name me one example), but this isn't an issue of the devs not making enough money and some big spike in DLC.... Cause I can just counter that by saying more studios have closed in the last 5 years than at any point in time since the previous industry crash. Clearly they aren't making enough money to keep all these studios open.

    Whether thats bad business practices or revenue issues is irrelevant though... Its about the fact that the devs have rights to ensure they are compensated as they see fit.

    Either way, this rumor is an extreme case yes. It will fail. WILL FAIL. Its extremism though is why I'm not inclined to believe it, and while its accomplishing the same goal I don't view this as online passes all over again. Online pass is paying a cover charge to get into a bar, this rumor is being locked into a mortgage and legally forbidden from selling your house.

    I don't believe comparing them is fair.
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    2-4: A just plain bad game.
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    7: An average game, should be played at some point
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss View Post
    Easily included based on your uninformed opinion? Yeah there is alot of bs DLC out there, true. Day 1 DLC is its own can of worms... However games are concluded typically 2-4 months before they are released if they are released on disc. I don't like Day-1 DLC any more than the next guy, but its usually not nearly as bad as its painted out to be either.

    I'll set aside the fact I know of no game on the market which costs an "upwards of $100 for what used to just be included" (seriously, name me one example), but this isn't an issue of the devs not making enough money and some big spike in DLC.... Cause I can just counter that by saying more studios have closed in the last 5 years than at any point in time since the previous industry crash. Clearly they aren't making enough money to keep all these studios open.

    Whether thats bad business practices or revenue issues is irrelevant though... Its about the fact that the devs have rights to ensure they are compensated as they see fit.

    Either way, this rumor is an extreme case yes. It will fail. WILL FAIL. Its extremism though is why I'm not inclined to believe it, and while its accomplishing the same goal I don't view this as online passes all over again. Online pass is paying a cover charge to get into a bar, this rumor is being locked into a mortgage and legally forbidden from selling your house.

    I don't believe comparing them is fair.
    lets see, gears 3 day 1 released a season pass to unlock all the dlc as they released, which cost $30 in microsoft points (which of course to get that amount you have to buy a near $45 increment.) but lets just say the $30 + 67 = 97 (this is near 100). Street fighter x tekken, 67 + 20 = 87. Mvc3, later released as umvc3 (same game basically a lame expansion that should have been the version released day 1 67+43 = 110, mass effect 3 is just starting out, day 1 you can add $10 to the price, and i'm quite sure theres going to be a lot more packs, theres tons more. Case in point I'm alright with a few map packs or added levels/chars here and there but in these cases its so blatantly obvious that it could have been included in the disc (it IS in some cases, and your paying for an unlock code). Then you can drop comments saying oh well you don't have to buy it, but even that isn't entirely true. With gears 3, people who didn't buy the newest map pack became unable to play on dedicated servers, meaning you have to play on laggy, terrible host (if you've played gears you know what i'm talking about), which for loyal fans who take the games multiplayer seriously is inexusable. Also, I of course couldn't play with the rest of my team who all had it since the match wouldn't start unless EVERYONE had it, so basically it was too the point if I wanted to continue playing the game, i'd have to shell out the $15 in MS points for maps that weren't even that good.

    And what you say at the end there is my original argument, that things like online passes were a way for companies to test the consumer's reaction. Most people ignored it or shelled out the extra money is they bought it new, and I believe that they saw that lack of consumer's care and are now deciding wether they could get away with taking that to the new level, ala banning used games altogether. Its corporate trying to use gradual steps to introduce a new method to screw over the consumer, IMO. But yes in the end hopefully your right and if they do actually attempt this it will fail.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    thats the point.
    it was to show the orbis dev site works while putting anything else that isn't ps3/vita doesn't work.
    Right, and that site has been up for a while. Its not really evidence right now that these rumors are true.

    Its been up for a bit and, as I said, we don't know if these rumors are picked because the dev site (which handles everything btw) is named Orbis or if the PS4 is actually code named Orbis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    forbes speaking logic again

    The Coming War on Used Games - Forbes
    Of course, this is what I've been saying all along... As has anyone with two brain cells. Its obvious why, the question is just what the gaming companies are going to do about it. What "Orbis" plans is a bad idea.

    Atleast Forbes has the decency to say they are rumors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange-Vision View Post
    lets see, gears 3 day 1 released a season pass to unlock all the dlc as they released, which cost $30 in microsoft points (which of course to get that amount you have to buy a near $45 increment.) but lets just say the $30 + 67 = 97 (this is near 100). Street fighter x tekken, 67 + 20 = 87. Mvc3, later released as umvc3 (same game basically a lame expansion that should have been the version released day 1 67+43 = 110
    What are the SF&MVC ones?

    You can't count the Gears 3 season pass because you are pre-paying for DLC that hasn't been released yet. I asked you to say what "used to just be included." Counting a system of DLC that had no place last generation doesn't make sense because at no point in time did that use to "just be included", particularly when you consider that # of MP maps without DLC hasn't decreased this generation (on average).

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange-Vision View Post
    mass effect 3 is just starting out, day 1 you can add $10 to the price, and i'm quite sure theres going to be a lot more packs, theres tons more.
    Yes, but I'm confused... How was any of this DLC "just included" previously? The amount of content in games hasn't decreased and day-1 DLC, while deplorable, is not so costly that it will dictate dropping 100 USD.

    Even your ME3 example doesn't entirely hold water because, as I said before, if you actually enter that code you so famously can... Whats unlocked on disc isn't actually From Ashes. Anyone who actually downloaded that DLC knows this is true.

    I can't cry for you when you are paying 100 USD for a game and getting more content than you used to, thats the point of DLC. I also don't buy into the concept that all DLC used to "just be included" in games. Thats ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange-Vision View Post
    Most people ignored it or shelled out the extra money is they bought it new, and I believe that they saw that lack of consumer's care and are now deciding wether they could get away with taking that to the new level, ala banning used games altogether. Its corporate trying to use gradual steps to introduce a new method to screw over the consumer, IMO. But yes in the end hopefully your right and if they do actually attempt this it will fail.
    I always bought new before if it was a game I care about, so me (and those like me) were completely unaffected by Online passes.
    Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.


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    0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
    2-4: A just plain bad game.
    5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
    7: An average game, should be played at some point
    8: A good game, should buy at some point
    9: A great game, day-one purchase
    10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

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    I do hope that this isn't going to be put in the " Orbis". But as always we just need to wait and see before we "judge".

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    Meh everyone wants to keep on making more and more money..

    Like 90% of my games are brand new, but still it would suck if you can't play used games

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    I want to see this on next gen ps

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    What i like about rumors is the fact that rumors are usually so far from the truth. So im going to throw out some rumors of my own about the PS4 and then come back when the PS4 is released and have a good laugh

    The PS4 will have a 1TB SD card instead of a HDD or SDD. It will also have a watercooled system to allow unlimited playtime without any over heating. It will play PS1 / PS2 / PS3 games and upscale the PS1 to PS2 graphics, the PS2 games to PS3 graphics and the PS3 graphics to PS4 graphics. There will be no loading times for PS4 games and the PS4 will be completely silent.

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    I think that the people who say there rumors are in denial. (jk) but seriously IMO I say why wouldn't it most of these things be true? A the rate this industry has been doing things already it wouldn't surprise me. That's all but in the end you'll just have to wait & see.

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    I have said this in the past and I'll say it again.

    I don't care about rumors until they get confirmed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DaRe_xLw View Post
    I have said this in the past and I'll say it again.

    I don't care about rumors until they get confirmed.
    I definitely agree. The whole Orbis thing has been going round, and since that name has been released all these bad stuff about it is being leaked, like there is nothing good with the console. It seems to me like a load of "let's make sure the next Sony console sucks" from opposition. People need to know what's true and what isnt, and unless it's off an official Sony website, I do not believe it is true. Sony has not released any information about PS4, and I dont think we should await it so much anyway. PS3 has still got great potential, and if we all move on so quickly, what will be the point of having a console, if in a couple of years we will get a newer one. I think the whole reason of going after the challenge Wii U is putting up of being the next generation consoles is a bad idea, both Xbox and PS3 can still last for the next few years without any stupid new editions made. Plus IDK I thought PS3 games should be able to be moved on to PS4/Orbis, just like PS1 and PS2 were joined with their DVD, PS3 and PS4 should have something similar. It would be rather awful to restart, as the whole PS+ and Playstation Store stuff will need changing, and if those games can move on, then why shouldn't the disc versions.

    TL;DR: Ignore this shit until it is finally confirmed, everyones just making a big deal as the only news thats being leaked is bad news...

    TL;DR: What's wrong with Orbis


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