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PS4, why?

This is a discussion on PS4, why? within the General PS4 Discussion forum, part of the Everything PlayStation; 1. I would also like to know what the system will look like but it is not a determinant on ...

  1. #61
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    1. I would also like to know what the system will look like but it is not a determinant on whether I will buy the product. Sony usually has decent designs so I will be happy.

    3. This was a feature I was really hoping to return with a new improved cell processor. But seeing how a lot of 3rd party developers chose to make the games on the Xbox then porting them to the PS3 do to it being easier to develop for. So we now have a more friendly architecture in our system but that means we lose out on the Backwards capabilities. I hope the cloud service will be a good addition to getting backwards capabilities sooner rather than later.

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    Another stellar thread, brought to us all by good ol' Angry Prat, who invited us all to have a civilized discussion and then insulted everyone who didn't agree with him. And here I was hoping we'd seen the last of him...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Parmigiana View Post
    Firstly, what was with them not showing the console itself? It really did just look lazy on their behalf, I know they are ‘claiming’ that they need something to show at E3 but this is really just sad that they cant show more games or something. I can’t believe they couldn’t at least show a concept design. People need to know what the console itself looks like so they can know how large it is or where the I/O will be etc. I am disappointed by this fact alone.
    I'm confused as to why this is relevant...

    1) Does it really matter what the I/O will be? You're not going to be using this for anything other than the PS4 and its accessories, and as long as it has an extra USB port (which the PS2 and PS3 had, so its safe to assume this will to)... You're fine.

    And lets say it does matter, lets say you are going to try to build a special setup with the PS4 to do high end software development (That AMD chip is fucking amazing and its x86, so it should be pretty easy to mod), so you need to know I/O...

    2) Does it really matter NOW? The console won't be out for another 6 months ATLEAST because they claim Q4, why on earth does any reasonable person need a 6+ month notice on how big an entertainment device is? Are you planning on constructing an entertainment center with a slot specifically designed to fit the PS4? That SSD you're ordering to serve as extra storage have a 6 month waiting list? Going back to my hacking example, what purpose does it serve to get a 6 month notice? You're not going to learn anything until it actually hits the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Parmigiana View Post
    No backwards compatibility? What were Sony thinking? This is such a huge setback. It is just terrible. I thought they would have learnt when people weren’t happy about the lack of compatibility on later PS3 models. I don’t see why Sony can’t just adopt the same principle that Windows and Mac have been using, where I can turn on my PC and play a game from yesterday, or a game from 10 years ago. Either way, Sony failed again with this one.
    Well in this case your comparison is somewhat ill-informed, see the problem is your Windows or Mac (even though operating on a new operating system) has been using largely the same fundamental architecture (x86) since the mid-90s. This means it takes some pretty radical operating environment changes to truly divorce you from the ability to use old software because the underlying backbone that does your processing speaks the same language and does the same processing.

    Although it is worth nothing here that backwards compatability on Windows and Mac are not given either, plenty of games on both systems don't play in a stable manner if at all due to driver differences or deprecation of critical OS features. The window is much larger (i.e. on Windows 7 I can pretty much play any PC game released since XP without toooooooo much worry) but there are still libraries of good PC games you can't really play on modern machines without additional software, hacks/patches, or dual-booting environments.

    Now when you migrate to Sony's case (as with many consoles pre-Xbox), the architecture changed on a regular basis to create a custom environment. To provide the capability of doing backwards compatibility the low-level environment on the PS4 would have to operate identical to the PS3 (i.e. this Jaguar chip would have to actually support and/or emulate CELL calls), this can add significant costs and/or degrade system performance, and thats assuming its possible (in some cases it is not).

    Thats not to say I really don't care about backwards compatibility, but I am more excited about the fact that Sony is migrating to a standard architecture (I loved the CELL, but thats mostly the engineer in me, its not good business to have a CELL). This means we are going to get better games because the developers can spend more time developing the games and less time developing their development environment.

    For this, I can forgive Sony's lack of NATIVE backwards compatibility...

    And I'd also like to point we are strictly talking about NATIVE BC, Sony has publicly said they are planning on providing emulation or cloud-based BC, which is an entirely different argument, and why I am a bit less upset about this lack of BC. If they provide a software-emulation layer as a part of the new XMB, it should be able to play MOST PS3 games (and should easily be able to emulate the old Emotion Engine of the PS2).

    If they provide a cloud-based solution, I am a bit less excited because we would potentially have to re-buy games, but I'll decide my opinion of that when I see what they say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Parmigiana View Post
    Now for the specs themselves, why are people even calling this a ‘next gen console’? Gaming PCs have had better hardware for years now, plus they can do a lot more. This is why the console industry needs to die, companies like Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo have it in a death lock and the amount of productivity happening is at snail pace. I hate to repeat myself but disappointing.
    So overall, this is going to be a failure. If Sony weren’t so stubborn and would actually make their platform open then I’m sure we would be having a different conversation at the moment.
    We have barely enough information to make any kind of determination of this, AMD and Sony haven't released more than how many cores the CPU will have, how much RAM it will have and the type, and the TFLOPS of the GPU.

    Now will it be ultra-amazing specs 4 years from now? Unlikely... But based on the information I have now I'd say it will be atleast as powerful as the high end gaming rigs you can build.

    The CPU is a fucking 8-core Jaguar (the newest AMD architecture), and I know from some friends who work at AMD that this was a pretty elaborate customization they did for Sony, and their hardware engineering team really geeked the fuck out with this CPU. It'll have a good amount of RAM, not great, and while the TFLOPS is a bit disappointing (ultra-high end graphics cards nowadays have 3-5 TFLOPS), the TFLOPS is hardly enough to tell the performance of the GPU... Dedicated graphics memory, processing cores, clock speed, and memory bandwidth matter just as much if not more.

    I'd also like to point out that consoles can do more with less than PCs because the operating systems on consoles are designed for gaming! I've discussed this at length before, but to remind you this means the optimizations the environment makes in a console tailor the entire experience to the needs of graphics processing and gaming. This is not the case on your PC where your operating system is a general OS that may be handling all kinds of things and potentially throttling your gaming performance so it can execute other tasks or just generally limiting performance because of either a lack of prioritization or a prioritzation strategy that doesn't favor gaming. Plus these consoles that MSoft and Sony build are optimized to work together at a hardware/firmware level, something that no PC ever is... So MSoft and Sony can actually tailor the software internal to the console to exercise the entire array of features of the processor and squeeze every drop of performance out of everything.

    You'd be surprised how many big features on your CPU/GPU aren't ever exercised by your OS because the OS is either not aware they exist or they are not enabled in drivers because it can't fit in the OS's abstraction/HAL layer. This is actually surprisingly common in GPUs in particular, if you're a PC gamer, your GPU is never fully utilized by Windows... Nvidia and ATi both have features on the GPU that your OS ignores or doesn't use for this very reason!

    So, what I am getting at here is everything I know right this second tells me the PS4 will be every bit as powerful as a gaming PC I could build in Q4 of this year (without spending ludicrous sums of money of course... If I want to drop 5k I can build a PC that will tear this thing apart, but thats 5k), and despite the fact the GPU doesn't appear as powerful as your average gaming PC GPU, I know enough about how these things are put together to know that it is possible that the PS4 will still perform as good or better.

    But, nobody except the developers involved really know what is inside the PS4, so its really too early for me to make a fair determination.
    Last edited by Gauss; 03-11-2013 at 11:10 AM.
    Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.


    Gauss's Rating Rationale:
    0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
    2-4: A just plain bad game.
    5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
    7: An average game, should be played at some point
    8: A good game, should buy at some point
    9: A great game, day-one purchase
    10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mturismo View Post
    Just ask Morgan Freeman. In 2005 Mike Wallace from 60 minutes interviewed him on his thoughts on Black History month.

    Toggle Spoiler



    "Stop talking About it." To me this is the same thing. And until there is evidence Sony is deliberately excluding women in the industry this shouldn't be an issue.
    SIDE-TOPIC: Ok, I had to give you +rep for this...

    I have been saying this since college! The reason racism, sexism, etc are all still alive in our consciousness is because people who don't actually want equality and would rather have superiority aren't letting it not be an issue.

    We don't have "Blonde history month" or "Outie belly button history month," why? Because these things aren't a big deal... They are aspects of your personal appearance and don't define who you are.

    Your race, gender, etc are no different... They may be a part of your person, but no black man is defined by being a black man, if a man is, he is not a man worth celebrating (and no, in my opinion people like MLK Jr. are not defined by their race, they are defined by the fact they had the balls to stand up and fight an injustice THATS what makes them great, the fact that the injustice had to do with race doesn't make them who they are).

    I feel like this whole thing is similar to things like the anti-GMO movement, its a tool being used by the rich, entitled, and powerful to keep us, as people, from really coming together. It keeps us where we are, it keeps us from moving ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by AizawaYuuichi View Post
    I feel bad for all you sane posters who had the unfortunate ability to read the OP's first post... or any of his other ones. I saw the thread title on the main page and thought I'd check it out, but after getting here, the first post was a tiny line saying "This message is hidden because Angry Parmigiana is on your ignore list." I then proceeded to read through all the "discussion" comments and remembered why this user is on my ignore list. Thanks, PS3T.com community!
    *shrugs* I don't really think this is any more a waste of time than any other aspect of this forum. Trolls are trolls and he may be getting off on our responses, but I feel like the responses themselves can spawn some fun and thoughtful discussion independent of him.
    Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.


    Gauss's Rating Rationale:
    0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
    2-4: A just plain bad game.
    5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
    7: An average game, should be played at some point
    8: A good game, should buy at some point
    9: A great game, day-one purchase
    10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

  5. #65
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    1. Who the hell cares what it looks like it will go on a shelf and I will look at it only when I am putting my discs in!

    2. it is a man dominated industry so of course there will be more men than girls.

    3. the CPU is not smart enough to directly allow BC.

    4. of course gaming PCs will be better they are the size of a small car, they have many mores components with more brains. They also are powerful components which is backed up byt the air flow a tower case allows. The playstation is a small device, hardly any air flow.

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