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Oculus Rift VR Founder Palmer Luckey : "30 FPS is a failure"

This is a discussion on Oculus Rift VR Founder Palmer Luckey : "30 FPS is a failure" within the General PS4 Discussion forum, part of the Everything PlayStation; http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ocu.../1100-6420493/ While many console games still run at 30 frames per second, Oculus VR’s founder Palmer Luckey has said he ...

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    Oculus Rift VR Founder Palmer Luckey : "30 FPS is a failure"



    http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ocu.../1100-6420493/

    While many console games still run at 30 frames per second, Oculus VR’s founder Palmer Luckey has said he doesn’t think of it as a choice, but a failure.

    Speaking with LinusTechTips, Luckey explained that virtual reality requires much higher frame rates than what you need on a typical screen. He said that 60fps is enough, but that we’ll see huge improvements with up to 90Hz or 120Hz and even small improvements beyond that.

    “VR is going to need much higher frame rates than consoles, although even for consoles or traditional PC games, I don’t think 30fps is smart,” Luckey said. “It’s not a good artistic decision, it’s a failure.”

    Last month, developer Ready at Dawn said that its PlayStation 4 exclusive The Order: 1886 will run at 30fps by design, as it’s seeking to deliver a "filmic look." As director Dana Jan explained: “60fps is really responsive and really cool. I enjoy playing games in 60fps, but one thing that really changes is the aesthetic of the game in 60fps.” Jan said that at 60fps would cause the game to look like “something on the Discovery Channel, like an HDTV kind of segment or a sci-fi original movie maybe. Which doesn't quite have the kind of look and texture that we want from a movie.”

    Luckey said that he starts to see diminishing returns between 90Hz and 120Hz, and that VR is probably going to end up somewhere in that range, at least for the foreseeable future.

    As for VR experiences using mobile devices (which Oculus is reportedly working on) Luckey said he thinks we’ll see more simple gaming and communication experiences, like panoramic photo capture and virtual movie theaters.


    This persons job is all about VR monitors and refresh rates. If you want to talk to a person about FPS in games, hes the person to talk to.

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    Ok, I am going to set aside the fact you are holding up a guy who uses Hz and fps interchangeably (hint: they aren't). Clearly demonstrating either this isn't the guy you say he is, or Oculus employs stupid people.

    This is kind of to be expected, although in this case it has nothing to do with existing hardware and everything to do with the eye/brain tandem.

    Hz-front:

    You can't really equate design decisions made with respect to the Oculus VR with design decisions made for people who use traditional display devices. They don't suffer from the same problems/have the benefits of a VR system. It is just different from a TV where it is on the other side of the room and your brain is compensating because it understands both eyes are looking at the same object. With a screen like what the Oculus has, that isn't the case. The refresh rate needs to be so high to avoid the eye from feeling like the (perceived) two unique images are actually two unique images due to artifacts produced by the screen... So 120 Hz for him is much more important than it is for a person playing on a TV.

    fps-Front:

    It is worth noting that the decision for the 30 fps likely has to do with the visual presentation they are going for, in gaming we tend to focus so much on that fps number with little regard for how our brains interpret that visual information. It is true that the higher framerates help with smoothing out fast paced action (similar to how higher refresh rates on TVs assist with digitally broadcast sports), but most of us gamers gloss over how that higher framerate influences the perception of organic movement. This mostly has to do with how we have been visually trained to process information and how our brain equates that "ps" part of "fps" to how time passes.

    See the reason why The Order made that decision is that (in reality) 30 fps (specifically 29.97) is the sweet spot for movement in natural time. Meaning if I film someone moving and break up their movement such that there are ~30 frames per second of film and the movement I filmed follows a linear progression, then someone watching that film will perceive the movement as taking roughly a 1:1 ratio (as in 1 second of film = 1 second of time within the film). If I decide to double that, then believe it or not the person watching it FEELS like the movement is slower (as in 1 second of film > 1 second of time within the film). To combat this, the film is sped up, but then the result feels inorganic and almost choppy or cartoonish. Its visually overwhelming, and not in a good way... Even if your brain can process all of the visual information, it feels unnatural.

    Now the same is true for games, although in a slightly different framework since games are rendered not filmed. All this means is that some of the effects are subdued, but it doesn't change the end result that the movement (at a certain point) begins to feel inorganic and almost choppy or cartoonish. In most cases, such as in the throws of gameplay, most people won't pick up on this. The character movement isn't your focus, and the environment is compensating (as everything is moving at that rate). However, I would challenge anybody to not be able to pick up on it during parts when the gameplay settles down (for example, in a cutscene). If The Order:1886 is going for something where the gameplay is a vehicle for the storytelling or if the story isn't focused heavily on twitchy fps action like CoD, then the choice makes complete sense.

    So, again, I am somewhat taken aback because the truth is his statements about the Oculus VR are seen specific to the VR, but the choice to limit the fps has to do with a different tone they are going for visually.

    And none of the above has anything to do with the refresh rate/Hz of the device.
    Last edited by Gauss; 06-17-2014 at 07:41 AM.
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    2-4: A just plain bad game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss View Post
    Ok, I am going to set aside the fact you are holding up a guy who uses Hz and fps interchangeably (hint: they aren't). Clearly demonstrating either this isn't the guy you say he is, or Oculus employs stupid people.

    This is kind of to be expected, although in this case it has nothing to do with existing hardware and everything to do with the eye/brain tandem.

    Hz-front:

    You can't really equate design decisions made with respect to the Oculus VR with design decisions made for people who use traditional display devices. They don't suffer from the same problems/have the benefits of a VR system. It is just different from a TV where it is on the other side of the room and your brain is compensating because it understands both eyes are looking at the same object. With a screen like what the Oculus has, that isn't the case. The refresh rate needs to be so high to avoid the eye from feeling like the (perceived) two unique images are actually two unique images due to artifacts produced by the screen... So 120 Hz for him is much more important than it is for a person playing on a TV.

    fps-Front:

    It is worth noting that the decision for the 30 fps likely has to do with the visual presentation they are going for, in gaming we tend to focus so much on that fps number with little regard for how our brains interpret that visual information. It is true that the higher framerates help with smoothing out fast paced action (similar to how higher refresh rates on TVs assist with digitally broadcast sports), but most of us gamers gloss over how that higher framerate influences the perception of organic movement. This mostly has to do with how we have been visually trained to process information and how our brain equates that "ps" part of "fps" to how time passes.

    See the reason why The Order made that decision is that (in reality) 30 fps (specifically 29.97) is the sweet spot for movement in natural time. Meaning if I film someone moving and break up their movement such that there are ~30 frames per second of film and the movement I filmed follows a linear progression, then someone watching that film will perceive the movement as taking roughly a 1:1 ratio (as in 1 second of film = 1 second of time within the film). If I decide to double that, then believe it or not the person watching it FEELS like the movement is slower (as in 1 second of film = > 1 second of time within the film). To combat this, the film is sped up, but then the result feels inorganic and almost choppy or cartoonish. Its visually overwhelming, and not in a good way... Even if your brain can process all of the visual information, it feels unnatural.

    Now the same is true for games, although in a slightly different framework since games are rendered not filmed. All this means is that some of the effects are subdued, but it doesn't change the end result that the movement (at a certain point) begins to feel inorganic and almost choppy or cartoonish. In most cases, such as in the throws of gameplay, most people won't pick up on this. The character movement isn't your focus, and the environment is compensating (as everything is moving at that rate). However, I would challenge anybody to not be able to pick up on it during parts when the gameplay settles down (for example, in a cutscene). If The Order:1886 is going for something where the gameplay is a vehicle for the storytelling or if the story isn't focused heavily on twitchy fps action like CoD, then the choice makes complete sense.

    So, again, I am somewhat taken aback because the truth is his statements about the Oculus VR are seen specific to the VR, but the choice to limit the fps has to do with a different tone they are going for visually.

    And none of the above has anything to do with the refresh rate/Hz of the device.
    Basically this.

    Also, fuck Palmer Luckey, for turning on everyone who backed his project up and for being a goddamn sellout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harryisonfire View Post
    Basically this.

    Also, fuck Palmer Luckey, for turning on everyone who backed his project up and for being a goddamn sellout.
    You should reiterate that he also uses Hz and fps interchangeably, so he can't be that smart.

    Seriously, the more I think about this... The more this bothers me. It might make me petty, but that fact may cost Oculus my purchase.
    Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.


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    0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
    2-4: A just plain bad game.
    5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
    7: An average game, should be played at some point
    8: A good game, should buy at some point
    9: A great game, day-one purchase
    10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss View Post
    You should reiterate that he also uses Hz and fps interchangeably, so he can't be that smart.

    Seriously, the more I think about this... The more this bothers me. It might make me petty, but that fact may cost Oculus my purchase.
    When he, basically "Sold Out", I was thinking of missing out on the Oculus Rift. The way he is using Hz and fps interchangeably makes him look stupid means I won't be getting an Oculus Rift because he does not know what he is talking about.
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