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Nintendo claims free to play is hurting their hardware business

This is a discussion on Nintendo claims free to play is hurting their hardware business within the Nintendo forum, part of the Multiplatform Talk; Nintendo: Free-to-play is hurting our hardware business - GameSpot The free-to-play genre is growing and growing, with shining examples like ...

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    Nintendo claims free to play is hurting their hardware business

    Nintendo: Free-to-play is hurting our hardware business - GameSpot


    The free-to-play genre is growing and growing, with shining examples like League of Legends and DOTA 2, but the business model is not adored by all. Nintendo president Satoru Iwata recently commented that free-to-play is actually hurting the company's hardware business because it means the Japanese game giant must work even harder to convince gamers to buy a 3DS or Wii U.

    "It has been 30 years since Nintendo started its business of dedicated video game systems, and if I want to maintain that size for the next 10, 20, or 30 years, leading a software-only business would only put us at a big disadvantage, which is another reason why we insist on our integrated hardware-software model," Iwata said during last week's Q&A with investors. The English translation of the briefing was published today.

    Iwata further explained that Nintendo's longstanding hardware-software model is suffering through a "significant handicap" today because it is increasingly difficult to communicate the value of its hardware when free-to-play offerings have become so commonplace....

    Apparently it's everyone's fault but theirs.


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    poor Nintendo! they dont want to change with the times,
    WAHHH!

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    Just as well games like DoTA and League of Legends are core gamer titles that make no impact whatsoever on Nintendo's target audience.

    Their handicap is the inability to release first-party titles when gamers want to play them, resulting in low adoption rates of the Wii U.

    Apparently the Wii U hardware is so new that it's taken their engineers years to adjust. None of them ever touched a 360 or PS3? That's the technical equivalent (some would argue superior) to the Wii U, so they had 7 fucking years to adjust!
    Last edited by ant1th3s1s; 02-03-2014 at 05:53 PM.

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    lmao. Seriously get Iwata the fuck out of Nintendo. Its not F2P (P2W*) thats hurting Nintendo and the Japanese market, its their primitive ways and beliefs. Get with the times as others say.

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    Sony and Microsoft just had the biggest video game launches of all time, it sure doesn't seem to be hurting them too damn much. Nintendo, make a good system with good games and you'll make money. Fuck over your core fanbase and you'll be in the situation you're in right now.



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    free to play is ruining all of gaming, not just nintendo, to the point of suicide.


    one of my favorite articles about free to play stuff is called "Optimizing your industry to the point of suicide"

    http://www.baekdal.com/opinion/optim...nt-of-suicide/


    It's killing the indus-

    -buy the rest of this argument post for 250 Ps360 Gems or wait 3 days for it to be built-



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    free to play is ruining all of gaming, not just nintendo, to the point of suicide.
    Aren't two of your favourite games from your favourite developer / publisher free-to-play and monetised entirely by micro-transactions? Doesn't every mod start out as free-to-play? The model can work, it's the pay-to-win component that doesn't sit well with gamers.

    I don't play any free-to-play games, I'd rather buy the full experience out of the box. The only game I can say has been ruined by the model is Guild Wars 2 (pay for the base game but there's no subscription usually associated with MMOs), and that's not necessarily because of micro-transactions which worked fine in Guild Wars for things like extra characters, storage & equipment, but because they dumbed it down to the point of unplayability to get the casual, micro-transaction paying numpties on-board.

    Everything fun about the first Guild Wars was ripped from the second to broaden the appeal, which I see as the bigger problem, but that again isn't necessarily a bad thing because the objective is an easier user experience, not an easier game. Some parts of GW2 are still rock-hard and we can't solo them like we did in GW with Heroes and Henchies, we have to play with others...kinda the point of an MMO but it ruined the franchise for me.

    Having just played through 10 Ratchet & Clank games I can see the same has happened with simplified controls (boots, wings & swingshot auto-equip) and shorter games (more people finish them), but it's a process of refinement, of stripping out unnecessary complexity, which is a UX thing and not *always* a money thing.

    Nintendo are masters of that approach and the way we play their games has nothing to do with micro-transactions, nor is there any demand or appeal for them in Ninty games, so I dispute that free-to-play makes an impact on their business. They simply don't put enough effort into releasing their games when the demand for them is highest, i.e. at Wii U launch, and that meant most gamers with a passing interest in Nintendo held off and waited for the PS4 and XB1 instead. For that, Nintendo has no-one to blame but themselves.

    That shit only flies for the casual gaming market, real gamers are too sophisticated to fall for the model. Try that on any other gaming medium than iOS and Android and it won't succeed. Dust 514 is a good example of attempting pay-to-win on PS3 and the game has a minuscule playerbase, which is ironic given tens of millions pay to play it's bigger brother Eve Online.

    We'll have to see how Deep Down approaches the problem - if it enforces a pay-to-win model then it's doomed to fail from the start. I was greatly looking forward to Deep Down...until I read it was free-to-play. I dare say that's the majority opinion among core gamers - free-to-play just doesn't work on us. We'll play the free part, but the moment we're forced to pay to win, we are outta there. There are too many other good games for us to play that don't try to pull this crap.
    Last edited by ant1th3s1s; 02-05-2014 at 05:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ant1th3s1s View Post
    That shit only flies for the casual gaming market, real gamers are too sophisticated to fall for the model. Try that on any other gaming medium than iOS and Android and it won't succeed.

    Dead space 3, Assassins Creed Multiplayer since AC:Revelations (eurido credits), Any game with a 3$ pack that sells you game shortening boosts (technology booster, Research all tech for 3$!), Any modern fully-EA developed Game, Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2, The Secret World,(soon) world of warcraft, Ryse, Forza 4/5, etc.


    it's called Paymium gaming. it already exists and is already built-in to most big future games.


    welcome to the game crash 2.0, it's gonna be a bumpy ride (for console gamers at least).

    Aren't two of your favourite games from your favourite developer / publisher free-to-play and monetised entirely by micro-transactions?
    you can get whatever you want for free in dota 2. Craft/Trade to your hearts desire.


    hell, if you play your cards right you can get full games on steam free using that.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    Dead space 3, Assassins Creed Multiplayer since AC:Revelations (eurido credits), Any game with a 3$ pack that sells you game shortening boosts (technology booster, Research all tech for 3$!), Any modern fully-EA developed Game, Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2, The Secret World,(soon) world of warcraft, Ryse, Forza 4/5, etc.
    All of it is entirely optional, as is buying hats in TF2 and mules in DoTA. This is nothing new - you can unlock all vehicles in Burnout Paradise and Need for Speed games as 'time-saver packs'. Same shit, different bucket. If you'd rather pay than play, you have the option...simples. That doesn't sound the death-knell of an industry and certainly makes no impact on Nintendo's business.

    None of your examples are forced, as it is in the article you posted, where the game gets to a point that it becomes impossible to progress without paying a micro-transaction. That is an insidious practice thus far limited to smartphones & tablets and it is that model that I'm referring to, as per your article, so your example are irrelevant. If you're going to provide examples then fulfil the criteria of free-to-play and pay-to-win, not optional add-ons for retail games that either save time or make cosmetic changes that have little to no impact on the game itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ant1th3s1s View Post
    None of your examples are forced, as it is in the article you posted, where the game gets to a point that it becomes impossible to progress without paying a micro-transaction. That is an insidious practice that thus far is limited to smartphones & tablets. If you're going to provide examples then fulfil the criteria of free-to-play and pay-to-win, not optional add-ons for retail games that either save time or make cosmetic changes that have no impact on the game itself.
    for people who can barely play the game due to work/medical issues, it's impossible to progress that far unless you pay for the timesaver pack.

    making those packs makes any game company think "if we can make it hard as hell to grind then they will rather pay then play long enough to get it"

    it's common video game practice nowadays. Battlefield 3 has "shortcut" packs for those who can't dedicate enough time to play the free way and want a quick way to get all the stuff. It's a Pay 2 win advantage in a game you pay for. Paymium.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    for people who can barely play the game due to work/medical issues, it's impossible to progress that far unless you pay for the timesaver pack.

    making those packs makes any game company think "if we can make it hard as hell to grind then they will rather pay then play long enough to get it"

    it's common video game practice nowadays. Battlefield 3 has "shortcut" packs for those who can't dedicate enough time to play the free way and want a quick way to get all the stuff. It's a Pay 2 win advantage in a game you pay for. Paymium.
    Then Valve is at the forefront of the Paymium game. You either grind for the gear by putting in the hours, or you pay for instant gratification. And fuck the 0.0000001% of gamers with 'work/medical issues' - that number is so insignificant that it's completely irrelevant to the argument at hand.

    In a nutshell, developers are giving lazy gamers an option to pay for a shortcut. If they want to pay, great. If not, there's NOTHING holding them back but time. None of your examples are so difficult as to be impossible to achieve without paying a micro-transaction.

    As it pertains to BF3 - the problem with online MP in FPS games is they are geared in favour of veterans by offering the most powerful kit to the most dedicated players. That makes it difficult for noobs to gain a foothold because they're constantly walking into a gun-fight packing a spoon. Spawn into the game and you get your head blown clean off from the other side of the map while the gun you're holding barely scratches the other guy's armour, assuming you can see him at all.

    Time-saver packs make sense in this environment to even the playing field and give noobs a fighting chance rather than providing an advantage. You still need to play long enough to learn the maps - don't know the map, you're still dead, no matter how much you paid for your arsenal. Unless they change the core mechanics of FPS MP so you start out with better gear and it gets crappier the longer you play, this isn't going to change.

    Not to mention the gazillion games that have ridiculous grinds WITHOUT the option to pay for a shortcut. Killzone 2, Resistance 2, Grand Theft Auto IV, Warhawk, Bad Company and even games like SingStar, Little Big Planet, ModNations Racers and LBP Karting all have massive grinds with no way to shortcut the process with a payment.

    The two (difficultly and pay-to-win) cannot be directly correlated on any platform other than casual iOS / Android / web browser games - they exist independently of the other. And any game that attempts to pull it off, like Dust 514 and Deep Down (let's hope not), is destined to fail, whereas the opposite is true on smartphones. Different audience, different model, different business entirely. The only thing all micro-transactions have in common is you are essentially buying time.

    Show me a single successful free-to-play and forced pay-to-win game on PC or console. The simple answer is you can't. Ergo, Nintendo is not a victim of the free-to-play mode, but a victim of their antiquated business practices and failure to meet demand for their own core products, which has nothing to do with casual gamers going elsewhere for their shovelware.
    Last edited by ant1th3s1s; 02-05-2014 at 07:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ant1th3s1s View Post
    Show me a single, successful, forced, pay-to-win game on PC or console.
    League of Legends.

    hopefully i don't have to open my 90 MB complication zipfile of Riot being a ass to prove it.


    edit:

    you know what fuck it im just gonna open the damn thing anyway

    http://i.imgur.com/17mZaHF.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/MsalCa5.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/vzmkDuX.jpg


    (this pic below is outdated due to dota out of beta and valve giving out free dota invites like hotcakes before it's release but still proves my point)
    http://i.imgur.com/K8r6Up9.jpg




    Also riots tendencies to release a hero for 9$ that is magically op for the first few weeks then is nerfed to hell and back the very next patch, which can make all that grinding you did absolutely useless in as little as a week.



    Riot are also owned by Tencent, who make the Monster hunter MMO in China. it's a forced Pay-2-Win or Grind forever type deal also.



    I don't even want to begin to describe how horrible Riot themselfs are in terms of bannings. they can literally permaban you for not playing how everyone else plays and trying something new. Which means you just lost all your money and fake money grinding just because you did something unique. Now grind again (because even though they permaban you, they still allow you to make another account.)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    League of Legends.
    Which goes back to my original point - how does this affect Nintendo in the slightest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ant1th3s1s View Post
    Which goes back to my original point - how does this affect Nintendo in the slightest?
    Why play on a console if the big successful game everyone is playing is on the PC? Not to mention that game is free! A bunch of computers are able to easily run Leauge at a low quality so no need to have a super high graphical pc to play it. You can be absolutely poor, have a 20$ POS computer, and play a popular game with everyone else. And if your amazing at that game, you have a chance to get sponorships, Get into high ranking teams, Get money to help your family, Go around the world to play against other teams to win more prize money that can reach millions of dollars, all beacuse you play a 100% free game.


    No console can compete with that. none. zero. zip. A free chance to get good, win money, Get a reputation for yourself. Thats why PC gaming is beginning to dominate. Esports. The only Console-Related Esports game i can think of is possibly Call of duty but the prize pool is way too small for anyone with actual skill to give a shit.



    LoL, Dota, Smite, Quake Live, Tribes Ascend, ETC. All have E-sports scenes that offer thousands to millions of dollars in prizes. All the games i listed in the previous sentence are free to play. Two big Pay-for games on PC that have esports are Starcraft and Counter Strike with similar cash pools.



    What would you rather do, Buy your favorite platform for 300/400/500$, Buy some games for it, play it and have fun by yourself? Or would you get a PC, Play Dota/League for free, And have the potential to win thousands/millions of dollars?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    Why play on a console if the big successful game everyone is playing is on the PC? Not to mention that game is free! A bunch of computers are able to easily run Leauge at a low quality so no need to have a super high graphical pc to play it. You can be absolutely poor, have a 20$ POS computer, and play a popular game with everyone else. And if your amazing at that game, you have a chance to get sponorships, Get into high ranking teams, Get money to help your family, Go around the world to play against other teams to win more prize money that can reach millions of dollars, all beacuse you play a 100% free game.


    No console can compete with that. none. zero. zip. A free chance to get good, win money, Get a reputation for yourself. Thats why PC gaming is beginning to dominate. Esports. The only Console-Related Esports game i can think of is possibly Call of duty but the prize pool is way too small for anyone with actual skill to give a shit.
    Please explain how the PlayStation 4 has broken sales records on not one, but two continents already, before it even launched in its home territory of Japan.

    Or why Grand Theft Auto V sold over 30 million copies in under 6 months.

    Surely if F2P and PC gaming is the future, we should be seeing a marked decline in sales figures for console hardware and software? Because the opposite appears to be true.

    Also, I'd like to know where I can get a $20 Computer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post

    Surely if F2P and PC gaming is the future, we should be seeing a marked decline in sales figures for console hardware and software? Because the opposite appears to be true.
    Don't Worry, it's coming.

    Console sales were declining since February last year.

    Also, I'd like to know where I can get a $20 Computer.
    Craigslist.

    1sale.com



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    Don't Worry, it's coming.

    Console sales were declining since February last year.
    People like yourself have been saying this for almost a decade, and I'm still waiting for it to happen.

    You also didn't answer my question. How are current-gen home consoles selling so well if F2P is destroying the market? Because the only one seemingly affected is Nintendo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    Craigslist.

    1sale.com
    Allow me to be more specific. I'd like to know where you can get a $20 computer that isn't covered in semen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    People like yourself have been saying this for almost a decade, and I'm still waiting for it to happen.
    Actually, I started seeing people saying that back in '99, so more like 15 years, and every time it's been "within 5 years". And as far as system sales declining since February of last year, guess what was announced February of last year...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps360 View Post
    No console can compete with that. none. zero. zip. A free chance to get good, win money, Get a reputation for yourself. Thats why PC gaming is beginning to dominate. Esports. The only Console-Related Esports game i can think of is possibly Call of duty but the prize pool is way too small for anyone with actual skill to give a shit.
    What the fuck are you smoking? Esports is the reason PC gaming is dominant and consoles are dying?!? That's like saying Tennis is dead because of Fishing...there's very little crossover between the Esport and console audiences, particularly Nintendo gamers.

    Esports is what we call a 'niche market'. Competitive MOBAs are an even smaller niche market. You can't extrapolate a conclusion like "PC gaming is dominating because of Esports, which is why Nintendo is dying" from a small sub-culture of a very large PC gaming community, many millions of whom are also console games, and a significant proportion play more than a couple of free-to-play games.

    I think you'll find very few PC gamers actually participate in Esports, let alone buy PCs to become pro gamers. Plenty might watch it, but few actively participate. Yes, 70 million gamers (Like that's believable. Try 7 million play it 10 times a month) apparently played League of Legends and yes, it being free has a lot to do with it. But only 0.0001% are actually good at it and an even smaller fraction of that make any money from it. The average punter has more chance of winning the lotto than being a pro gamer.

    I'll reiterate what Faust said - Grand Theft Auto V, 35 million copies sold in 6 months. Biggest console launches ever. Nintendo's the only company complaining. On top of that, PC hardware sales were the lowest for 20 years in 2013. I don't think anyone's giving up their Wii U to become a pro LoL player...

    You're going for the 1-percenter arguments as justification for a broader problem, which is Nintendo just plain sucks right now and it's their own damn fault.
    Last edited by ant1th3s1s; 02-05-2014 at 09:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ant1th3s1s View Post
    You're going for the 1-percenter arguments as justification for a broader problem, which is Nintendo just plain sucks right now and it's their own damn fault.
    Absolutely. They severely misjudged the market when they brought the Wii U out onto the stage.

    Really insulting to blame their failures on free to play, mobile gaming or whatever else when two other console devices are succeeding. It's all part of the business I guess so I can't blame them for jumping into damage control mode, but I wonder if they could have come up with something a little bit more believable.

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